Wolf inpact

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mnaj_springer said:
Is this an attempt of satire?
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Not at all. Wolves were native in each of the parks that I mentioned. People that don't live in rural America want wolves reintroduced to parts of rural America. People that live in rural America don't want wolves in those parts of rural America. Therefore I suggest we move the wolves to the parks where the people that want them live. As a scientific experiment, let us get rid of all the reintroduce wolves and see what effect that has on the elk population. If the elk don't come back then you will be right. Then we can reintroduce them again. If they do come back we will know the cause of the problem and we will have already solved it.
 
mnaj_springer said:
You're right about what a "root cause" is defined as, but then the debate becomes, are wolves the "fundamental reason" for the decline. I'm saying I need to see more evidence (scientific, not anecdotal) before believing that. And then we need to ask, is the decline truly a bad thing for the eco-system (I could care less if it affects elk hunters).

But honestly, humans have had a much larger negative impact on wildlife than any other animal.
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Well if your not happy with any of the evidence that could be given to you. I suggest an airplane ticket is in order and you can witness the first hand decimation of our herds as we have!
 
haymaker said:
Not at all. Wolves were native in each of the parks that I mentioned. People that don't live in rural America want wolves reintroduced to parts of rural America. People that live in rural America don't want wolves in those parts of rural America. Therefore I suggest we move the wolves to the parks where the people that want them live. As a scientific experiment, let us get rid of all the reintroduce wolves and see what effect that has on the elk population. If the elk don't come back then you will be right. Then we can reintroduce them again. If they do come back we will know the cause of the problem and we will have already solved it.
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I quoted the elk hunting wolves statement. Maybe you misread.

But to address what you said this time.... I live in rural America. I see wolves. They see me. That's the extent of our interactions. Most people in northern MN have learned to co-exist with the wolves. I also read recently that the eastern red wolf was making a comeback in/around some urban areas out east without much issue.

Your "experiment" you propose still won't yield any scientific results that indicate causation because of the extraneous variables, which is my point. Reasonably and logically we all know that wolves have an effect on the population of prey animals. But to what extent? That's the question that needs to be answered. And how has the change affected the overall eco-system? That's another question that needs to be answered. Just because people are inconvenienced by the presence of something does not mean it should be eliminated.
 
mnaj_springer said:
I quoted the elk hunting wolves statement. Maybe you misread.

But to address what you said this time.... I live in rural America. I see wolves. They see me. That's the extent of our interactions. Most people in northern MN have learned to co-exist with the wolves. I also read recently that the eastern red wolf was making a comeback in/around some urban areas out east without much issue.

Your "experiment" you propose still won't yield any scientific results that indicate causation because of the extraneous variables, which is my point. Reasonably and logically we all know that wolves have an effect on the population of prey animals. But to what extent? That's the question that needs to be answered. And how has the change affected the overall eco-system? That's another question that needs to be answered. Just because people are inconvenienced by the presence of something does not mean it should be eliminated.
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You are right, I responded to my last post. If we could teach elk to stampede wolves when they see them maybe the wolves would eat mice instead. Obviously I don't think that is going to happen. I am not talking about inconvenience, I am talking about losing livelihood. Coyotes put me out of the sheep business, I still lose a calf now and then. That is a thousand dollars a calf. We have a predator district and shoot coyotes by the hundreds. I don't want to think about what a wolf could do to me. I know a guy in northern Minnesota that lost rare and valuable genetics to wolves. I don't want one those @#$%^& within a hundred miles of here. How many thousands of dollars do you want to contribute to the wolves? I will let my friend know that you will be sending him a check.
 
Haymaker, I understand the loss of property and the loss of money is frustrating. I doubt anyone would argue that. But when I hit a deer, or any other animal, which causes me personal hardship and loss of money, should I blame the DNR for the action of the deer? No, I have insurance and savings for protection against that because I acknowledge the risk and take protective measures. If a bear shreds my car apart while camping in the mountains, is the state responsible? No! I know the risk and assume I must protect myself financially.

Same goes for business owners. They understand and protect themselves against these risks (or at least they should).

And the elk already have ways to defend themselves. The bulls fight and the cows kick. They cross freezing waters that the wolves avoid. But life persists and predator eats prey, and humans complain. That's life (man I really hope I'm not the first to have to tell you this. The birds and bees will be a real eye opener if you haven't heard this stuff before).

Regarding your Minnesotan friend... that sucks. He can send me the bill if he wants, but good luck collecting.
 
mnaj_springer said:
And the elk already have ways to defend themselves. The bulls fight and the cows kick. They cross freezing waters that the wolves avoid. But life persists and predator eats prey, and humans complain. That's life (man I really hope I'm not the first to have to tell you this. The birds and bees will be a real eye opener if you haven't heard this stuff before)
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Funny to here you say that.......friend of mine recently watched a whole herd of elk pushed on to the partially frozen river trying to escape. All 18 drowned........then the wolves kept hunting! And when they run out........they come in close to our homes. They have no problem eating the dogs off of your front porch. I have seen two wolves in the last couple weeks driving main roads within the second largest city in Idaho! They are indeed decimating our deer/elk populations!
 
timbertiger20 said:
Funny to here you say that.......friend of mine recently watched a whole herd of elk pushed on to the partially frozen river trying to escape. All 18 drowned........then the wolves kept hunting! And when they run out........they come in close to our homes. They have no problem eating the dogs off of your front porch. I have seen two wolves in the last couple weeks driving main roads within the second largest city in Idaho! They are indeed decimating our deer/elk populations!
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THEY WERE DRIVING!!!! Now we have problems! First of all, how did the wolves get the car started? So many questions!
 
mnaj_springer said:
Haymaker, I understand the loss of property and the loss of money is frustrating. I doubt anyone would argue that. But when I hit a deer, or any other animal, which causes me personal hardship and loss of money, should I blame the DNR for the action of the deer? No, I have insurance and savings for protection against that because I acknowledge the risk and take protective measures. If a bear shreds my car apart while camping in the mountains, is the state responsible? No! I know the risk and assume I must protect myself financially.

Same goes for business owners. They understand and protect themselves against these risks (or at least they should).

And the elk already have ways to defend themselves. The bulls fight and the cows kick. They cross freezing waters that the wolves avoid. But life persists and predator eats prey, and humans complain. That's life (man I really hope I'm not the first to have to tell you this. The birds and bees will be a real eye opener if you haven't heard this stuff before).

Regarding your Minnesotan friend... that sucks. He can send me the bill if he wants, but good luck collecting.
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The point is they were gone and some people decided that we had to have them back and who cares how much damage they do. There wasn't a vote just a bunch of liberals who found a liberal judge who felt it was important to damage lives. As bad as it is to lose a calf someday it is going to be a kid. As you know there was a boy attacked in Minnesota awhile back. How many kids should die before we get rid of the wolves?
 
Should we eliminate cars because kids die in them? Should we eliminate alcohol because kids get killed by drunk drivers? Should guns be eliminated because they kill people too?

I think we agree the answers are all "NO!"

Yes, at the least, it was a poorly prepared and executed plan. At worst, it was illegal. But so far the solution you have presented seems ridiculous.
 
mnaj_springer said:
Should we eliminate cars because kids die in them? Should we eliminate alcohol because kids get killed by drunk drivers? Should guns be eliminated because they kill people too?

I think we agree the answers are all "NO!"

Yes, at the least, it was a poorly prepared and executed plan. At worst, it was illegal. But so far the solution you have presented seems ridiculous.
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Those are terrible comparisons..........

I would make the comparison.........Should we turn terrorists loose on US soil......or maybe more like should we turn pedophiles loose in a school! I mean they turned wolves loose knowing that they would kill a large number of our native animals........and for what? To make a few animal rights activists happy!
 
timbertiger20 said:
Those are terrible comparisons..........

I would make the comparison.........Should we turn terrorists loose on US soil......or maybe more like should we turn pedophiles loose in a school! I mean they turned wolves loose knowing that they would kill a large number of our native animals........and for what? To make a few animal rights activists happy!
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THOSE are terrible comparisons. I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion because they are important to our growth as people but you've moved beyond that with this last statement.
 
mnaj_springer said:
Should we eliminate cars because kids die in them? Should we eliminate alcohol because kids get killed by drunk drivers? Should guns be eliminated because they kill people too?

I think we agree the answers are all "NO!"

Yes, at the least, it was a poorly prepared and executed plan. At worst, it was illegal. But so far the solution you have presented seems ridiculous.
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Cars have value and serve a purpose. Alcohol does more harm than wolves. I have several guns that have never killed anyone. Cars have never decided that they should kill something. It is peoples decisions that kill whether it is using a gun, a car or wolves. As to my solution, open season on wolves year round. Dogs legal, airplanes legal, with a all out war on wolves we would never run out of them. It is ok with me if there are 7 left.
 
mnaj_springer said:
THOSE are terrible comparisons. I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion because they are important to our growth as people but you've moved beyond that with this last statement.
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Really??.....I'd say those are very accurate! All involve a top level predator unlimited access to prey with what is essentially a 100% outcome!

Your comparisons involve giving someone a car or alcohol and a what maybe 5% chance of a death?
 
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