Wolf inpact

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mnaj_springer

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I wish when people made such inflammatory claims they would at least have some citations. That kind of writing makes me question the credibility.

But you can't fight fire with fire and you can't fight extremism with extremism.
 

mnaj_springer

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Wesselpointer... As I hope most everyone knows, correlation does not equal causation. And most people also know that there are a lot of factors that affect the populations of animals, and usually more than one factor contributes to population change. So one must ask, what are ALL the factors that have changed?

My guess is there have been other things that have been responsible for the decrease in the elk population (climate, reduced habitat, change in vegetation, etc. etc.) as well as wolves.

But those yearly censuses may not paint the full picture... Were they all taken the same time of year? (It seems clear they weren't) Were the same procedures used? Etc.

It's easy to blame the wolves. They directly compete with elk hunters... But a jigsaw puzzle is not complete until all the pieces are in place.
 

koja48

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Funny how those who aren't impacted by the spread of reintroduced wolves see no problem with it. Several friends back home in Montana have lost livestock & dogs to wolves; neither they nor I share "protect the wolves" views. The tree huggers in Seattle think wolves are wonderful, cuddly Disney-like creatures; I wonder if that outlook would change if a pack was roaming that metropolitan area preying on groomed & pampered poodles?
 

mnaj_springer

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In Minnesota the wolf population was growing and forcing more interaction with humans. After two consecutive years with limited wolf seasons, the population is much more weary of people. I've seen this change with my own eyes.

A balance can be found.
 

haymaker

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In Minnesota the wolf population was growing and forcing more interaction with humans. After two consecutive years with limited wolf seasons, the population is much more weary of people. I've seen this change with my own eyes.

A balance can be found.
So I guess we need to find a way that Elk can hunt wolves, then the wolves might be wary of elk.
 

haymaker

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Since they moved the wolves in to Yellowstone park, They should move them to Central Park, Grant Park or Golden Gate Park. They would do more good there and they were once native there.
 

koja48

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No, the "con" was introducing a larger species of wolf that was never found in the lower 48 & then failing miserably to account for & control the mistake in a timely manner. Now formerly healthy & flourishing stocks of indigenous ungulate species such as elk, moose, & deer are paying the price in addition to ranchers & folks who live in rural areas. The so-called "reintroduction" was an experiment gone terribly wrong & that and that alone created the "imbalance" that now exists. Therein lies the sole "causation."
 
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mnaj_springer

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There's no doubt that the wolves have affected the populations of the animals they prey on. But to name only one factor (any one factor) as the sole cause is erroneous and lazy. Any Eco-system is complex, and each variable interacts with the other variables. Do the wolves need to be managed as well? Yes, absolutely. But are they the only reason for the elk population decline? Definitely not.

But in our reactive society, we'd prefer one thing to blame after the fact, rather than recognize all of the factors and make informed, reasonable conclusions, and the appropriate actions that ought to follow.
 

koja48

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Since "root cause" is defined as: "The fundamental reason for the occurrence of a problem," and such significant depredation/kill-off of elk & moose in places where the new wolves have become established following "reintroduction," that certainly appears to be a significant causal factor. While disease, hard winters, wild fires, loss of habitat, etc. can cause population fluctuations, it has only been since the advent of the populations of larger wolves that such has reached the monumental proportions realized today, but the introduction of a much larger & fiercer wolf species foreign to the northwestern US IS the root cause. Failure to control the wolf population early-on certainly was a contributing factor. Shortly after wolves became problematic in Montana, I found 2 fresh wolf kills (cow & calf). When I reported it to a state biologist, he was reluctant to believe me, saying: "How do you know it was a wolf?' "Because there were tracks & 4 wolves were standing in them." He still didn't believe it was a wolf kill. Had Canadian wolves NOT been introduced uncontrolled initially into the Northwest, we wouldn't be having this conversation would we . . .
 

mnaj_springer

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You're right about what a "root cause" is defined as, but then the debate becomes, are wolves the "fundamental reason" for the decline. I'm saying I need to see more evidence (scientific, not anecdotal) before believing that. And then we need to ask, is the decline truly a bad thing for the eco-system (I could care less if it affects elk hunters).

But honestly, humans have had a much larger negative impact on wildlife than any other animal.
 
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