Winter affects?

Crossing shot

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How do you think the quail are doing this winter? Temperature has been very beneficial. Lots of rain. How is the rain affecting carryover?

Thinking quail are doing well. Would like it to be more consistent next year.
 
So far, at least where I'm at, I don't think that the winter weather has had any negative effect on the population. The rain should bring things out of dormancy this coming spring in good shape to be another productive year. As wet as it is now in many area, the wheat crop should be well on it's way to being good and that should bring the pheasant population along with it. The pastures have recovered some from the drought and the quail should benefit from that. It is key to leave adequate quail at the end of the season that next year can be better than this season. There is sure plenty of time left for Mother Nature to dip into our reserves and choke next year's potential. Of course, the quail are more susceptible that the pheasants.
 
So far, at least where I'm at, I don't think that the winter weather has had any negative effect on the population. The rain should bring things out of dormancy this coming spring in good shape to be another productive year. As wet as it is now in many area, the wheat crop should be well on it's way to being good and that should bring the pheasant population along with it. The pastures have recovered some from the drought and the quail should benefit from that. It is key to leave adequate quail at the end of the season that next year can be better than this season. There is sure plenty of time left for Mother Nature to dip into our reserves and choke next year's potential. Of course, the quail are more susceptible that the pheasants.

I am also worried about late season hunting of quail. I sure enjoy it, but I am now nagged by the research project in Missouri claiming the late season harvest of quail is more damaging than early season harvest, theory claims that birds who survive to late January are very likely to become breeders in the spring. Also that early season harvest are surplus birds which may fall prey to predators, fringe habitat, etc. I have seen that study referred to in other states quail management circulations. I had some doubt as to the theory originally, but the data seems sound. Missouri stops the quail season in January 15th, has forever, starts on November 1. Since you mention it I thought I would get your thoughts? As we all know Texas and Oklahoma go into Feb. Florida goes to mid March!
 
I am also worried about late season hunting of quail. I sure enjoy it, but I am now nagged by the research project in Missouri claiming the late season harvest of quail is more damaging than early season harvest, ......................................... but the data seems sound. Missouri stops the quail season in January 15th, has forever, starts on November 1. Since you mention it I thought I would get your thoughts? As we all know Texas and Oklahoma go into Feb. Florida goes to mid March!



I wouldnt worry at all about it. Old&New I think if I recall you have been around quite a bit longer than me (I'm a 35yo) but think about how many more people used to hunt quail/pheasants several years ago and how many more birds were harvested. In the late 80's/Early to mid 90's my dad's family had a connection in Parsons KS and it was normal for them to kill nearly limits sometimes for a group of 10+ at times - they'd usually get 80-100 birds in one day with no dogs hunting hedge rows.

It wasnt because they were good shots or shot a covey up - it was because the habitat was perfect.

The habitat and farming practices matter more WAY more than hunting pressure does. I'd venture to say theres far fewer people bird hunting the past 2-3 years much less compared to years ago. I know VERY few if anyone near my age range much less younger that are into pointing dogs much less walking all day for birds. In the 80's and early 90's it was normal for most people to have a bird dog around at least around here. Much less what it would have been like in the even better times before that.


If we stay in this wet cycle and the habitat we have becomes an overgrown matted mess with no running lanes and open areas down low where the quail live, their population will flatline or go down again. You can search some of my posts from 2011 and 2012 and as crappy as the drought was here, I had mentioned I felt it would be an eventual boon for the quail as mother nature was basically going to restore the habitat to something suitable for quail at least temporarily. I'm going to enjoy this cycle while it lasts and hope I can keep making contacts with folks that have properties conducive for consistent quail populations. The places I like to go the #'s of quail are WAY up compared to the later 2000's however it still isnt like it was in my college years due to the CRP corners that were lost and the clean farming/clearing of fence rows that have continued to happen. The patches where the birds do well are continuing to shrink. No offense to the farmers on here as I know the ones who participate are stewards to the wildlife, but I hope commodity prices continue to go in the toilet and a good farmbill might be passed with some more incentives for conservation in there.

The worst thing that happened to the area I frequent was the loss of many crop corners. These 5-7 acres patches really were a boon for both pheasants and quail and in some areas deer even. It really does not take a lot of land to be set aside for wildlife out of production to be conducive for mother nature. I really have to wonder how much extra money one makes from farming an extra 20-30 acres of wheat around a center pivot when you consider the extra inputs and loss of economy of scale having just a small patch of the crop there. One can only keep fingers crossed guys may set those corners and poor producing land aside again.


Maybe I need to start studying the farmbill, but I really hope if there isnt now there will be a financial incentive for folks to set aside those small patches of cover which is all the birds need as long as they all somewhat connect together. I was reminiscing with my buddy on our Saturday hunt about the land we were hunting on which used to be my honey hole all during college and a few years after, but when all the neighbors to this farmer tore out their CRP, patches and the loss of CRP corners, and the loss of one 20 acre patch of pasture grass the farmer turned into a crop field, it was downright depressing that even with the good conditions this year there was nary a bird on this farmers parcel. All told it was a half section and one contiguous quarter section...I could spend all day from sunup to sundown hunting the crop corners on a quarter section, and 2 pastures and be in quail, pheasants, and a few prairie chickens the entire day. Now we walk the same parcel farmed a little cleaner, with the loss of a key bit of habitat on it, coupled with surrounding neighbors patches of CRP corners gone and more spraying, you can hardly find a bird walking the corners. I personally probably wont hunt that parcel again as its been nothing but a waste of time but luckily he has another parcel that is similar that hasnt went through those negative changes yet.

About 8 years ago on this same parcel I hunted the 20 acre pasture/grass that is now a wheat field that bordered and touched two 7 acre crp corners and no joke had 20-30 points on pheasants, shot my limit of roosters in about 20 minutes and found a covey of quail that had been there for years. Now nothing. I wish I would have kept a journal to mark how many points there was that day but to this day still remember thinking I wish I had a witness as no one would believe what is happening right now. The birds were just perfectly spread out on the place and held very well for the dog. Wish I had a go pro to document that day as well.

Anyways, hunt and focus on getting folks to maintain the proper habitat and farming practices. In the big picture - late season hunting will have no affect.

I havent even been seeing any bird hunters the past few outings I've been on.
 
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I am also worried about late season hunting of quail. I sure enjoy it, but I am now nagged by the research project in Missouri claiming the late season harvest of quail is more damaging than early season harvest, theory claims that birds who survive to late January are very likely to become breeders in the spring. Also that early season harvest are surplus birds which may fall prey to predators, fringe habitat, etc. I have seen that study referred to in other states quail management circulations. I had some doubt as to the theory originally, but the data seems sound. Missouri stops the quail season in January 15th, has forever, starts on November 1. Since you mention it I thought I would get your thoughts? As we all know Texas and Oklahoma go into Feb. Florida goes to mid March!

I guess the best I can say is it depends. Everything is relative, relative to it's management, pressure, potential, status, etc. Any area that received significant pressure will be more likely to suffer from the effects of late season harvest. Areas that might be protected from upland hunting by deer leases or other factors may well be able to sustain some fairly strong pressure late because the carryover to that point. Nothing in nature is an even coat of paint. As you mention, there are areas that are dominated by fringe habitats, maybe better said as marginal habitats where the effects would be magnified. There are other areas where, coming out of the drought, the habitats were improved due to those pressures. Those areas may well be more resilient and will probably even expect additional increase because those improved habitats have not been filled and the predisposition to reproduce strongly in such a circumstance will pull the population that way. We all know that there are some many variables between now and when we would call next year's crop of birds "recruited", that we'll not be writing the season opening predictions just yet.

Shane, to surmise that the wet conditions will automatically lead to overgrown conditions fails to take into account the producers on the land. Unfortunately, many of them are far more optimistic about improving conditions and fail to accept or understand the depth of the damage done by the drought. They will return to or even surpass the grazing pressure on those grasslands prematurely or beyond what the recovery actually is. In the short-term, that may well lead to increased production. However, once some kind of stressor returns to that habitat, it may well crash more quickly and/or deeper than it would have or should have had management been more cautious. I guess the reason there is no perfect recipe for managing these habitats is that you have to be responsive as a land manager to what comes just as you have had to with what has already been. It is often more art than prescription. Putting X pounds of beef on in May and pulling them off in November isn't art, it's bad management. I'm not sure the "average" rules are always in effect during the peak boom or bust years. I'm guessing that, in those years, the effects of many things could well be either buffered or magnified beyond what they would be in a "normal" year. The magnificent recovery of quail in Texas' Rolling Plains is such an example. Despite the problems with eye and cecal worms, the population bounced bigger than expected perhaps because the improvement in the habitat and maybe even the extent of the reproduction season combined to perform that well in spite of the expected health problems. I think we can expect that the same level of overharvest in two different areas may well result in two different results. We, as a species, are more than a bit lazy. We tend to not measure the population before the season and, therefore, tend to not know what we should harvest. If you want to have birds late season to work pups on or to ensure reproduction the following year, harvest lightly! My constituents ideals (not all of them) that, "if I don't kill them, someone else will", consistently leads to a population that is below what the habitat would support. YOU have to have control of every variable in order to ensure you've done everything you can to ensure next year's population. The less control, the more limited the predictions. Not sure I answered any or all of the questions.
 
The rain has done a good job of reducing my time in the field. Looks like late January may have some good weather days.
 
I guess what I meant Troy about becoming overgrown was the CRP fields already in place that never had any grazing, mowing, burns etc performed on them. So I was glad to see some of it thinned out so to speak by the drought.



I wasnt meaning to kill them all or go with that mentality - I'd think most on here would be respectful hunters and only take a fair # from the covey and leave the rest alone.


I do believe hunting pressure really has little to nothing to do in the big picture of things as compared to the habitat and weather.

Suitable habitat however sadly keeps shrinking and shrinking. Todays push for 200% (sarcasm) farming efficiency and love affair with chemicals made by Monsanto don't help much in areas that are under production.
 
Talked to a guy out around Woodward, OK a few weeks ago. He said he's been hunting there for 50 years and this is at least as good as the best he's ever seen. Now that says something about the ability of the bobwhite to reproduce given the right conditions.

I also do not think it is a coincidence that the boom came a couple years after devastating drought. They've played with the season here before. Gone back and forth from 1/31 to 2/14 a couple of times in my lifetime. If conditions are right, they'll do well.

I have made it a point to be conservative with some birds on a ranch I hunt. There always seems to be the same amount of birds everywhere in the same areas on this ranch whether or not I leave more or less birds in the coveys at the end of the season.
 
In extreme SE Kansas the rain has been devastating. Hate to think what effect it has had on all wildlife. The water was up to the top of the goal post on the football field at one of our high schools.
 
Personal Rules

I guess the best I can say is it depends. Everything is relative, relative to it's management, pressure, potential, status, etc. Any area that received significant pressure will be more likely to suffer from the effects of late season harvest. Areas that might be protected from upland hunting by deer leases or other factors may well be able to sustain some fairly strong pressure late because the carryover to that point. Nothing in nature is an even coat of paint. As you mention, there are areas that are dominated by fringe habitats, maybe better said as marginal habitats where the effects would be magnified. There are other areas where, coming out of the drought, the habitats were improved due to those pressures. Those areas may well be more resilient and will probably even expect additional increase because those improved habitats have not been filled and the predisposition to reproduce strongly in such a circumstance will pull the population that way. We all know that there are some many variables between now and when we would call next year's crop of birds "recruited", that we'll not be writing the season opening predictions just yet.

Shane, to surmise that the wet conditions will automatically lead to overgrown conditions fails to take into account the producers on the land. Unfortunately, many of them are far more optimistic about improving conditions and fail to accept or understand the depth of the damage done by the drought. They will return to or even surpass the grazing pressure on those grasslands prematurely or beyond what the recovery actually is. In the short-term, that may well lead to increased production. However, once some kind of stressor returns to that habitat, it may well crash more quickly and/or deeper than it would have or should have had management been more cautious. I guess the reason there is no perfect recipe for managing these habitats is that you have to be responsive as a land manager to what comes just as you have had to with what has already been. It is often more art than prescription. Putting X pounds of beef on in May and pulling them off in November isn't art, it's bad management. I'm not sure the "average" rules are always in effect during the peak boom or bust years. I'm guessing that, in those years, the effects of many things could well be either buffered or magnified beyond what they would be in a "normal" year. The magnificent recovery of quail in Texas' Rolling Plains is such an example. Despite the problems with eye and cecal worms, the population bounced bigger than expected perhaps because the improvement in the habitat and maybe even the extent of the reproduction season combined to perform that well in spite of the expected health problems. I think we can expect that the same level of overharvest in two different areas may well result in two different results. We, as a species, are more than a bit lazy. We tend to not measure the population before the season and, therefore, tend to not know what we should harvest. If you want to have birds late season to work pups on or to ensure reproduction the following year, harvest lightly! My constituents ideals (not all of them) that, "if I don't kill them, someone else will", consistently leads to a population that is below what the habitat would support. YOU have to have control of every variable in order to ensure you've done everything you can to ensure next year's population. The less control, the more limited the predictions. Not sure I answered any or all of the questions.

I agree that habitat is key for quail. And pheasants they say are more resilient when it comes to survival. But I have steadily watched the quail population rise on the farms that I hunt in central Kansas. I would go out ten years ago and see 2-3 coveys a day and quite a few pheasants. Now I go out and see 9-10 coveys in a day and very few pheasants. The habitat hasnt really changed other than crop rotation. With the quail, whether I'm hunting public or private, I put rules on myself and my hunt. 1. I dont shoot the bird unless my dog points it. 2. Take no more than one shot on a covey rise. 3. Take no more than 1 single. 4. Try to shoot males if you can recognize them.(Even though I know quail are monogamous, but still the males dont lay eggs.) 5. Dont hunt after 3pm so they have time to covey back up before dark.
These are just some of my rules that I have adopted. And some of them may not matter much. But the farms I hunt consistently have birds on them. I hunt all the way till the last day of season if possible. But I rarely hunt the same more than twice a year. Which is why I have to mix in a lot of public ground to keep my puppies busy. You definitely have to have a mindset to be conservative. Its not an "all you can get" hunt like in the 70's and 80's. I always tell my dad, "thank's a lot old timer for killing all the birds!" Now we have to hunt with rules.
 
All week was planning on hunting quail today. After the rain and before the cold front. First thing this morning, checked the forecast. No hunting today. Birds need to feed and the cold front is coming in quicker than expected. Wind chills near zero at dawn tomorrow and gets worse from there.

Not happy. Still the best course of action long term.
 
I agree that habitat is key for quail. And pheasants they say are more resilient when it comes to survival. But I have steadily watched the quail population rise on the farms that I hunt in central Kansas. I would go out ten years ago and see 2-3 coveys a day and quite a few pheasants. Now I go out and see 9-10 coveys in a day and very few pheasants. The habitat hasnt really changed other than crop rotation. With the quail, whether I'm hunting public or private, I put rules on myself and my hunt. 1. I dont shoot the bird unless my dog points it. 2. Take no more than one shot on a covey rise. 3. Take no more than 1 single. 4. Try to shoot males if you can recognize them.(Even though I know quail are monogamous, but still the males dont lay eggs.) 5. Dont hunt after 3pm so they have time to covey back up before dark.
These are just some of my rules that I have adopted. And some of them may not matter much. But the farms I hunt consistently have birds on them. I hunt all the way till the last day of season if possible. But I rarely hunt the same more than twice a year. Which is why I have to mix in a lot of public ground to keep my puppies busy. You definitely have to have a mindset to be conservative. Its not an "all you can get" hunt like in the 70's and 80's. I always tell my dad, "thank's a lot old timer for killing all the birds!" Now we have to hunt with rules.

Pretty good stuff Whisper. One mistake I'd like to update you on. Quail are not monogamous. About 17% of the hens will mate with a second male and, after leaving the first male on the first nest, will renest. About 3% will leave the second male with the second nest and breed with a third male and renest. These % are from memory, so forgive me if I missed it by a bit. Also, dad will tell you, none of those birds from the 70's or 80's would still be alive today:rolleyes:
 
I guess what I meant Troy about becoming overgrown was the CRP fields already in place that never had any grazing, mowing, burns etc performed on them. So I was glad to see some of it thinned out so to speak by the drought.



I wasnt meaning to kill them all or go with that mentality - I'd think most on here would be respectful hunters and only take a fair # from the covey and leave the rest alone.


I do believe hunting pressure really has little to nothing to do in the big picture of things as compared to the habitat and weather.

Suitable habitat however sadly keeps shrinking and shrinking. Todays push for 200% (sarcasm) farming efficiency and love affair with chemicals made by Monsanto don't help much in areas that are under production.

You're right Husker. Crp is only really useful for bobwhite if managed intensively or modified at planting to the point it probably wouldn't pass NRCS standards. Research going on in MO is finding that bobwhite will avoid ungrazed pasture if grazed is available (and maybe if it's not). Structure is critical for quail to prosper and heavy loads of growth or thatch by the grass will ruin that structure. I know that pressure is a problem on certain areas that are hard hit. Where hard hit areas are small and surrounded by unhit or lightly hunted habitat, it's probably insignificant. We're back to relative.
 
That is good stuff!! When I was raising a few birds I decided to try a trio of Quail.. I male and 2 females in a 3x6 foot by 3 foot high enclosed area.. Really not much room. The hen layed her first clutch hidden within the grass and the male was setting...She did not renest for herself nor did the other hen lay any eggs..Probably because of the space involved..But that male would get off to feed and the hen would set..Don't know if the hens took any turns between themselves or not..But the Male was on the majority of the time and they hatched out and raised all the little ones to maturity..My Pheasant pen was a bit larger at 75 x 25 x 10 feet high and we had one hen that hid her eggs and we never found them until she attacked me one day as I walked by collecting eggs.. She hatched those out as well as I left her eggs alone after they were obviously in a neat nest hidden from view unlike the other eggs.
 
question

Pretty good stuff Whisper. One mistake I'd like to update you on. Quail are not monogamous. About 17% of the hens will mate with a second male and, after leaving the first male on the first nest, will renest. About 3% will leave the second male with the second nest and breed with a third male and renest. These % are from memory, so forgive me if I missed it by a bit. Also, dad will tell you, none of those birds from the 70's or 80's would still be alive today:rolleyes:

So all but 17% are monogamous? Or will all hens go looking and only 17% breed again. I know they will have multiple nests especially if one or two are unsuccessful. But do they "re-mate" because the male died or left? I didnt realize they naturally found another male. I know as far as our pen-raised breeding goes. I have to have the following female to male ratios to be successful: Quail- 1 to 1, Chukar-3 to1, and Pheasants- 8-1
 
That is good stuff!! When I was raising a few birds I decided to try a trio of Quail.. I male and 2 females in a 3x6 foot by 3 foot high enclosed area.. Really not much room. The hen layed her first clutch hidden within the grass and the male was setting...She did not renest for herself nor did the other hen lay any eggs..Probably because of the space involved..But that male would get off to feed and the hen would set..Don't know if the hens took any turns between themselves or not..But the Male was on the majority of the time and they hatched out and raised all the little ones to maturity..My Pheasant pen was a bit larger at 75 x 25 x 10 feet high and we had one hen that hid her eggs and we never found them until she attacked me one day as I walked by collecting eggs.. She hatched those out as well as I left her eggs alone after they were obviously in a neat nest hidden from view unlike the other eggs.

That's funny. Ive had pheasants lay eggs in the feed hanger and wouldnt let any other bird near it. I put peepers in their noses at 7 weeks to keep them from fighting and pecking. Cut them out before releasing them. Or otherwise these situations would turn out worse. Most of them lay where I can find em and incubate them. Bad part is, some years we have so many we have to throw them out. We have had deviled quail eggs before too! Proud of my wife on those occasions. Lots of work. I use Johnny Houses for the most part. Pheasants go in the flight barn at 7 weeks. Chukars too. The quail stay in 12 x 16 x 12 houses. Water down on the ground, food up high. And they fly really well! Dont get many runners.
 
Those that get the first male to incubate often choose another male and mate with him and either leave him to incubate or incubate herself. I think that this is more common further south where the reproductive season is longer.
 
It is important here to remember the capabilities of the birds we are discussing. Bobwhite are not blessed with long legs or wings that are designed for longer flight. As a result, their capability to repopulate areas with depressed populations or extirpated populations is more limited than some other species. Further, understand that today's habitat is getting more and more isolated from the next habitat. As a result, the probability or possibility of a hunted-out habitat being repopulated is lower. That might not happen often, but add in the need for genetic diversity, and someone has to move somewhere to keep exchanging DNA. This may not be a problem in the grasslands of Texas, but in farm country, it can be important. Keeping a robust population in those isolated habitats should concern us. If we get that number beaten down and then get a significant environmental condition, those small populations could be at risk.
 
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