Who's buying a Class A season pass?

[calamari]

BTW, thanks for the advice. Some have suggested using one of those starter pistols. Robert suggested a 22 rifle but I don't have one of those. I can probably find someone that does but I am reluctant to fire rifles around my property. I've read that it can be a long process and that's okay. I've got a lot of time.

If you don't have a .22 gun that slapper I tried to describe can make a noise so loud it hurts my ears and can be toned down based on how hard you slap the boards together. It's the sharp noise that startles and frightens the dog.
Feeding time is the easiest because you always have to feed the dog, it's a pleasant time for him that he looks forward to and you may not want to build all the stuff Robert suggests. Find a time when he's relaxed and happy. Cap guns if they still make them are a low impact way to desensitize the dog too. Single sound events until he doesn't notice.
First you have to become someone he wants to be around. Having the dog with you all day if possible and not in a kennel or a box is the quickest way to build a bond. Play with him and touch his feet and get him OK with you looking in his mouth. Things like that and obedience training establishes you as pack leader and makes him want to please and be submissive to you. Even if it turns out he never turns into a hunter you'll want him to be in your control and to be able to mess with his feet and mouth without getting bitten. It will take time and doing those other things will make the harder issue of loud noises a little easier. You've got one of the harder problems to deal with.

 

[ditchparrot19]

I have some experience with a gun shy dog (my dads), it is a long process to fix but doable.

It is not ALWAYS doable, and anybody preparing to try it needs to have a grasp on that from the get-go. There are some dogs that simply cannot be pulled through it, no matter what, and you don't want to beat yourself up because you start thinking you're not doing things exactly right. The best professional gun dog trainer I know will not even take on cases of gun-shyness because the odds of him not being able to fix it are too high for him to accept a customer's money with a clear conscience.

Best of luck, and take things very, very SLOWLY!

 

[quail hound]

There is no problem on earth that is resolvable 100% of the time and I don't think I implied that this one is. I know that my dad has a dog that was very gun shy that he is now able to shoot over and that problem was even compounded by him being a low drive dog. Is it always fixable? No but it's not a lost cause.

 

[ditchparrot19]

There is no problem on earth that is resolvable 100% of the time and I don't think I implied that this one is. I know that my dad has a dog that was very gun shy that he is now able to shoot over and that problem was even compounded by him being a low drive dog. Is it always fixable? No but it's not a lost cause.

With gun-shyness, it's not anywhere near the ballpark of 100 percent and some dogs are, unfortunately, lost causes. It might be "doable," but it might not be, too. Whomever is trying to remedy it simply needs to know that if any attempted "cure" doesn't work, it's almost certainly not the fault of the trainer, but whatever/whomever caused the issue in the first place -- and it's almost always a man-made issue.

If progress isn't evident in the early stages, then it's probably time to forget about it and accept the dog for the other qualities it brings to the table.

 

[calamari]

It is not ALWAYS doable, and anybody preparing to try it needs to have a grasp on that from the get-go.

I didn't want to say that but unfortunately it's true.
For example, my ex wife had a beautiful purebred Brittany that she got as a very young dog that somebody had mistreated and was gun shy. I was never able to take it hunting no matter how much I tried to get it over the gun shyness. It would seem to be OK at home with guns and loud noises but once it was in the field and saw a gun it became erratic, would fight with other dogs in the group and was never able to be a hunter. It was just not comfortable with hunting with humans. It would hunt by itself at home when she'd let it out in the morning to do it's business and would come home with live possums and rabbits and the occasional chicken in an area where nobody had chickens. Crazy in the head.
Like people, some dogs are born or made psychotic and can't be "made" better. Try your best, expect the worst and bask in the glow of anything that's better than nothing. Obedience training will tell you a lot about your chances with the dog.

 

[NewmanCA]

It is not ALWAYS doable, and anybody preparing to try it needs to have a grasp on that from the get-go. There are some dogs that simply cannot be pulled through it, no matter what, and you don't want to beat yourself up because you start thinking you're not doing things exactly right. The best professional gun dog trainer I know will not even take on cases of gun-shyness because the odds of him not being able to fix it are too high for him to accept a customer's money with a clear conscience.

Best of luck, and take things very, very SLOWLY!

I've read an article from a pro-trainer who deals with gun shy dogs and he believes in the majority of cases the problem can be fixed and there are a few times that it can't. This person has a lot of experience dealing with this problem. He noted that many people aren't equipped to deal with it properly and can make the matters worse. I also realize that it isn't always curable from my reading. That really should just be common sense.

I can see why some trainers don't want to deal with though

 

[NewmanCA]

I have some experience with a gun shy dog (my dads), it is a long process to fix but doable. The best way is to build the dogs prey drive with birds, build a johnny house or pigeon loft and get some bobwhite quail or pigeons to train with. Pigeons are cheap and will home to a loft once they've raised a brood there, quail are a little more expensive but will recall to a johnny house if you use it correctly. Get the dog amped on birds, let him chase them. When he is finding, flushing, and chasing birds with gusto you can shoot a .22 blank when he is far off (75+ yds) chasing and he shouldn't even notice. Work slowly back from there making sure you're getting no reaction every step closer and eventually you'll be shooting over him. It helps if the dog already has high drive but if not the chase should build it. You should be able to find a .22 blank training pistol and loads cheap at a sporting goods store if needed. Let me know if you need any help.:cheers:

Thanks for the info Robert. I will definitely contact you if I have any more questions. My plan this week is just to take the dog for walks. I am just trying to get him to know I am his friend. One early thing I like is when I say Heel he comes right to my side and sits so he has some obedience training in him. I still have him on the leash this week. Next week I will walk him without the leash and start playing catch with him. The biggest thing I have to keep in check is being patient and taking things slowly

 

[enzinn]

...He noted that many people aren't equipped to deal with it properly and can make the matters worse.

I have a friend who just shot over his dog with 12 gauge shotgun the first time the dog was ever exposed to a gun blast. The dog has never been the same and it seems like the more my friend tries to correct the problem, the worse it gets.

She is really driven to trail and retrieve, but falls apart when there is a gun blast. This has been going on for three years now - I think it would be time to throw in the towel and have suggested as much to my buddy. He doesn't want to admit it, likely because it means he needs to make her a house dog and start all over with another Lab. So it goes in the world of raising hunting dogs - you look for favored odds with genetics and try not to screw the dog up too bad if you can. In my friend's case, he completely screwed up by blasting a large bore firearm right over the dog while she was still growing and getting used to everything. She might have still been damaged goods due to her genetics, but he'll never know because it appears he did lasting psychological damage to her with that one time.

 

[calamari]

I've read an article from a pro-trainer who deals with gun shy dogs and he believes in the majority of cases the problem can be fixed and there are a few times that it can't. This person has a lot of experience dealing with this problem. He noted that many people aren't equipped to deal with it properly and can make the matters worse. I also realize that it isn't always curable from my reading. That really should just be common sense.
I can see why some trainers don't want to deal with though

Remember he's doing it as a business that has an acceptable failure potential. If it works, he's a genius. If it fails, some dogs are untrainable. If he does his remedial conditioning based on no pay w/o acceptable results to the owner then, personally, I'd give his program a higher rating.

My plan this week is just to take the dog for walks. I am just trying to get him to know I am his friend.

That's the attitude to have. It's not about being equals so it has to include acceptance of you as the leader that the dog likes and doesn't fear. I think.

The biggest thing I have to keep in check is being patient and taking things slowly

You've learned your hardest lesson in this endeavor which will help your dog learn his. Cesar Millan has a good book about becoming a pack leader and changing your dogs state of mind to help training. I hope you have great success because every dog is worth the effort...except my ex wife and her dog that is.

 

[enzinn]

BTW - I wanted to wish everyone a merry Christmas and happy New Year!

And I also wanted to mention how pleasant it has been to correspond on this forum. I like that everyone seems to be pretty mellow, helpful and informative, in distinct contrast to other bird hunting forums on which I have participated.

Erik Zinn

 

[calamari]

BTW - I wanted to wish everyone a merry Christmas and happy New Year!

The same to you and yours and to everybody and everybody's buddy.

 

[NewmanCA]

I have a friend who just shot over his dog with 12 gauge shotgun the first time the dog was ever exposed to a gun blast. The dog has never been the same and it seems like the more my friend tries to correct the problem, the worse it gets.

She is really driven to trail and retrieve, but falls apart when there is a gun blast. This has been going on for three years now - I think it would be time to throw in the towel and have suggested as much to my buddy. He doesn't want to admit it, likely because it means he needs to make her a house dog and start all over with another Lab. So it goes in the world of raising hunting dogs - you look for favored odds with genetics and try not to screw the dog up too bad if you can. In my friend's case, he completely screwed up by blasting a large bore firearm right over the dog while she was still growing and getting used to everything. She might have still been damaged goods due to her genetics, but he'll never know because it appears he did lasting psychological damage to her with that one time.

Wow, I didn't shoot over him. I was away from him and shot away from his direction. I saw his reaction and that was enough. My first two labs were completely oblivious to it all. My second lab was never trained to hunt and wasn't exposed to shots as a pup but for some reason she just never got scared of shots. She actually gets excited when she sees the guns coming out.

 

[calamari]

My first two labs were completely oblivious to it all.

I've been around a relatively few spaniels but they seem to be more "touchy" about training than Labs. In my experience, at their worst Labs can be just efficient tools, a hammer without much personality. At their best, they're almost as efficient a tool but with personalities and feelings that can make them delicate in certain circumstances but better companions.
One springer I hunted around was so hard headed it's owner would stomp the dog or beat it with a dried thistle out of frustration. He was a biologist too and knew better but his dog wore him down. Another was a great pheasant dog but would retrieve and swim when it felt like it as opposed to when its owner felt like it. Not all springers are that way but they can be trying.
The other bad potential is that they can be poor choices for families with small children. A friend had one that bit their grandkids twice before it was put down. They have a term for it called "Springer Rage." Not all of them, but some. Train yours to let you take its food away from it and even out of its mouth to desensitize it to kids behavior if they come in contact with them. If it won't let you do that, keep kids away.

http://www.essfta.org/english-springers/health-genetics-and-research-faq/springer-rage-syndrome/

 

[NewmanCA]

I've been around a relatively few spaniels but they seem to be more "touchy" about training than Labs. In my experience, at their worst Labs can be just efficient tools, a hammer without much personality. At their best, they're almost as efficient a tool but with personalities and feelings that can make them delicate in certain circumstances but better companions.
One springer I hunted around was so hard headed it's owner would stomp the dog or beat it with a dried thistle out of frustration. He was a biologist too and knew better but his dog wore him down. Another was a great pheasant dog but would retrieve and swim when it felt like it as opposed to when its owner felt like it. Not all springers are that way but they can be trying.
The other bad potential is that they can be poor choices for families with small children. A friend had one that bit their grandkids twice before it was put down. They have a term for it called "Springer Rage." Not all of them, but some. Train yours to let you take its food away from it and even out of its mouth to desensitize it to kids behavior if they come in contact with them. If it won't let you do that, keep kids away.

http://www.essfta.org/english-springers/health-genetics-and-research-faq/springer-rage-syndrome/

I will try that. So far, this Springer has the sweetest disposition. He isn't going to come in contact with young children. My kids are already teenagers and we no longer ever have young children over. This dog would get a ranking of zero as a guard dog, lol. So far, towards me he is still a bit shy. Really happy to see me but I can tell still not completely comfortable with me yet when first approaching him. Should be okay over time. At least he has some obedience. On the leash I could get him to walk along side of me and not pull on the leash when I do a whoa command. So I have a good beginning to work with. I think my female lab would have been a great hunting dog had she been trained. Even without training she would track and flush pheasants and at least follow them to where they fell. This year I might have lost the first shot rooster had she not tracked it down. She is getting older now and a bit out of shape and is content just following behind me more often than not.

 

[enzinn]

Wow, I didn't shoot over him. I was away from him and shot away from his direction. I saw his reaction and that was enough. My first two labs were completely oblivious to it all. My second lab was never trained to hunt and wasn't exposed to shots as a pup but for some reason she just never got scared of shots. She actually gets excited when she sees the guns coming out.

Newman - I didn't mean to imply that you had done that. I was just giving you an example of a friend who tried for three years to undo a mistake of his and still won't give up, but in doing so has probably caused permanent irreparable damage to his dog.

You sound like you a far more smarter and sensitive to the needs of the dog.

Sorry about the misunderstanding - it wasn't intended as a dig toward you.

 

[quail hound]

Merry Christmas guys! I hope you all have a great holiday and get one last rooster.:cheers:

 

[enzinn]

I ran into a guy up north that hunted with both a Spaniel and a Lab at the same time. It was interesting to see the two of them work together.

I have never owned a Spaniel or hunted over one. Are they just for upland hunting, or can you waterfowl hunt with them too? Can they do sub-freezing water work and hunt in heavy snow like Labs?

They sure look a lot lighter and more compact than Labs. It would ease my early season burden of having to carry a bunch of water for the dog if it didn't run as hot as a Lab. I basically hunt near water as much as possible now so my Lab can immerse herself whenever she gets hot. Which is about every 15 or 20 minutes when the temperature is above 55 degrees. Heck, even in the 40's and 50's she gets to panting pretty heavy in short order if the sun is out.

 

[quail hound]

They get just as hot as a lab because they tend (not always true) to work faster and cover more ground. They're great retrievers on both land and water and make good non slip retrievers in the blind, canoe, and dove fields but probably can't make extreme blinds like a lab. They can tolerate cold temps and snow just fine as long as they're moving but freezing temps in the blind are not their place, that is where labs and chessies shine. All dogs have their place and a good spaniels main place is in the pheasant fields for sure.:cheers:

 

[quail hound]

Hopefully we meet up some day and you can cross hunting with a spaniel off of your list. I admit JP is not trained anywhere near his potential but he'll put birds in the bag and despite his short comings (all my fault) he is my constant companion.:cheers:

 

[NewmanCA]

Newman - I didn't mean to imply that you had done that. I was just giving you an example of a friend who tried for three years to undo a mistake of his and still won't give up, but in doing so has probably caused permanent irreparable damage to his dog.

You sound like you a far more smarter and sensitive to the needs of the dog.

Sorry about the misunderstanding - it wasn't intended as a dig toward you.

Oh no. I didn't think that at all. I was just pointing out that even I am not that stupid as inexperienced as I am in these matters. I am grateful to all the tips people here have given me. In different ways, I screwed up my first lab that a pro trainer was able to fix. I am determined not to repeat those mistakes.

BTW, next time you are pheasant hunting in my area don't forget to look me up. I am always looking for people to pair up with.