Training question, no bird drive

S

Scooter

New member
My now 9-month GSP has been working in the field and now understands his nose, and points the birds. http://www.ultimatepheasanthunting.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14396

But...the training wants him to actually gut/eat a bird to get that blood-lust in him. I'm not sure how I feel about, but don't feel I should starve him until he decides to eat the bird and connect it as food.

Looking for some experience and insight from all of you. Our 2 GSP's are first house/family dogs, get fed and sleep on the couch, but still "kennel" in the laundry room when we're not home.

Thought? :confused:
 
You're kiddin me right ?

Your trainer told you that?

So are you concerned that your dog doesn't have enough prey drive and this is the fix?

We need more info on your dog as I wouldn't recommend letting a dog eat a bird under any circumstances. But that's just me.:confused:
 
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If you look at my link, originally he showed zero interest in birds. His 3 year older sister I think "trained" him that she would find the bird first and he was to hang back...my mistake, I never took him alone, always with her.

So fast forward, found a great trainer that I really like, great reputation, and have been working Ruger alone for the past 3 weeks and he now gets it. He uses his nose, stalks the birds, kills them and then brings them back. I am very happy with the progress, he just wants him to be more aggressive toward the bird, and show ownership.

Don't get me wrong, the trainer is great, really like him and the progress we've made, but I am also very committed to working with him daily. Just looking for some thoughts from all the other knowledgeable folks on here :)
 
uh...hmmm.

Your dog, your choice.



Were it my dog and my choice, I would not do these things, or allow them to be done.

Never really had the problem which it could cause myself, but have helped a friend break his dog of "crunching" birds he was sent to retrieve. (Used frozen quail and a lot of monitoring.)


but as I said,

Your dog, your choice.



Best wishes.
 
Kismet said:
uh...hmmm.

Your dog, your choice.

Were it my dog and my choice, I would not do these things, or allow them to be done.

Never really had the problem which it could cause myself, but have helped a friend break his dog of "crunching" birds he was sent to retrieve. (Used frozen quail and a lot of monitoring.)


but as I said,

Your dog, your choice.



Best wishes.
Click to expand...

You mean the forced eating thing, just to be clear? I agree, if he does not want to eat it why make him, and would it create a worse habit later by having a hard mouth?

That's why I am asking for thoughts and opinions. No matter which trainer I choose, or anyone else does, there are going to be things that we disagree on, we're people with opinions. I can live with that.
 
Drive in young dog

Each individual has their methods of bringing on a young dog but I believe encouraging a young dog to consume the bird will cause greater problems in the future.
Expose the dog to as many birds as possible an allow him to chase. Normally killing a bird is sufficient to encourage the desire to hunt. At this point I would try to expose him to wild birds, if possible, or released birds that are strong fliers. He should not be allowed to catch the bird. Eventually he should find that if he points and allows you to flush the bird it will be killed. When he picks it up encourage him to come to you with the bird. When that happens praise him. Some slow starting dogs need a lot of bird exposure to develop the hunting desire.
Encouraging a dog to eat the bird puzzles me.
 
Have to agree with Murphy on this one.

Believe it or not once in a while some need a lot of bird exposure to jump start that prey drive. Even then it may never be equal to others. Still doesn't mean the dog can't become a good birddog, just that it may take a little more time and more birds.

The problem I see with letting them chew on or consume birds is with mouthing problems, most notably hard mouth. So even IF it created more desire, now you've got an even bigger problem and one that could be even more difficult to overcome.

It's very hard to diagnose any of this on the internet and you are there and we are here. You have the luxury of seeing the dog respond to different training technics and we don't.

It's not something I would do nor is it anything I've ever heard or have seen other pro trainers do.

Your dog, so use your best judgement. They are what we make of them.
 
Agree with Murphy. And I would think that allowing the dog to eat a bird could cause more harm than good. If I were in your shoes I would maybe try a preserve with some good flyers and hunt him alone so he gets plenty of contacts.
 
birdshooter said:
Have to agree with Murphy on this one.

Believe it or not once in a while some need a lot of bird exposure to jump start that prey drive. Even then it may never be equal to others. Still doesn't mean the dog can't become a good birddog, just that it may take a little more time and more birds.

The problem I see with letting them chew on or consume birds is with mouthing problems, most notably hard mouth. So even IF it created more desire, now you've got an even bigger problem and one that could be even more difficult to overcome.

It's very hard to diagnose any of this on the internet and you are there and we are here. You have the luxury of seeing the dog respond to different training technics and we don't.

It's not something I would do nor is it anything I've ever heard or have seen other pro trainers do.

Your dog, so use your best judgement. They are what we make of them.
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and opinions. We would agree, and don't plan to have him eat it. We'll keep getting him on birds every week and working daily with him. He's come a long ways in 3 weeks already.
 
I'd be finding a different trainer . . .
 
Scooter said:
But...the training wants him to actually gut/eat a bird to get that blood-lust in him. I'm not sure how I feel about, but don't feel I should starve him until he decides to eat the bird and connect it as food.
Click to expand...

Very bad idea in my opinion.
 
Scooter said:
If you look at my link, originally he showed zero interest in birds. His 3 year older sister I think "trained" him that she would find the bird first and he was to hang back...my mistake, I never took him alone, always with her.
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I'm 99% sure your issue is with the sister and bird dominance. I experienced it first hand. I've got a very experienced now 8 year old golden and a pretty good 3 year old golden. The time I spent training the young one was just me and her, the older dog was not there. Come hunting season, I hunted them together. Almost from the get-go, the older dog was ultra competitive and very possessive of the birds. It didn't take long of watching the younger one back down to figure out the older dog was the problem. I started hunting them separately. It got so bad that one time while hunting the younger one alone, she flushed a rooster. I shot the bird and she ran toward where it went down. It was dead, lying on the snow, but she refused to get within 5 feet of it. She wanted to, but was very apprehensive and would walk around it and look at it, but not want to go in on it or pick it up. It was like she thought that because it was a bird, it wasn't hers.

That took a lot of work to overcome. Lots of praise and back to the basics to get her interested and confident in birds was what it took with my dog. Work with just her alone. Start small and basic and work into it. It is better to the point now that I hunt both dogs together but even then there are still dominance issues that I have to deal with. Interestingly, the younger pup can and will take toys right out the mouth of the older dog. The dominance issues are limited almost exclusively to birds. Just be patient. let your pup get excited about birds.

One other tip, when I was working back one on one to get my younger pups confidence up, I would take her a couple of nights a week to a local game farm hunt club and walk her along the pens where they kept their pheasants for hunts. I would make a big deal out of going there and repeatedly tell her "find birds" and "where is he"...all the little encouragement words that I still use in the field. She got to love going there and running alongside pens and seeing those birds.

Good luck, take your time, be patient...it will work out. :thumbsup:
 
Murphya gave you some very good advice.


But I would add that you need to expose the pup to as many birds as possible and by himself. He has got to learn that he is there to hunt.
 
Scooter said:
If you look at my link, originally he showed zero interest in birds. His 3 year older sister I think "trained" him that she would find the bird first and he was to hang back...my mistake, I never took him alone, always with her.

So fast forward, found a great trainer that I really like, great reputation, and have been working Ruger alone for the past 3 weeks and he now gets it. He uses his nose, stalks the birds, kills them and then brings them back. I am very happy with the progress, he just wants him to be more aggressive toward the bird, and show ownership.

Don't get me wrong, the trainer is great, really like him and the progress we've made, but I am also very committed to working with him daily. Just looking for some thoughts from all the other knowledgeable folks on here :)
Click to expand...

''Stalk I get, what does kill the bird mean". I'm kind of a duffer in this dog training thing, but the pointers, we want them to do the arrested stalk known as a point, and never believe they can catch the bird.
you can see the dilemma when the dog learns to point the bird and then immediately after the fall, now go ahead and grab it.
I think this is where force fetching comes in.
point first ,then fetch as programmed by force fetch.
in my older age, as I like to work smarter not harder, I think a good pro is money well spent
 
i agree with almost everyone , YOUR DOG YOUR CHOICE , but i would not be willing to allow any of my dogs to Eat a bird , i would try bird exposure and also maybe a launcher with a wing clipped bird , shoot at it but not to kill it get excited , and get the dog to chase as if it was dead but only wounded, Ive used Pheasants with great results , but thats just me , the last thing you want is to have to hunt your dog down before he eats the bird before you can get it from him , Ive seen it and its ugly , it only takes once OR twice and the dog thinks its OK to eat the bird and your playing a game with it . had a buddy that had a dog that you didn't want to retrieve a quail for you cause if you were lucky you might get the wings back . just my two cents , but i would rather take my chances with bird exposire than to teack or allow mine to eat the birds .
 
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