Training Pointing Dogs

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IsThisHeaven?

Member
I have been considering a pointing breed for my next dog. I have never trained a pointing dog so I have some questions I am hoping someone can shed some light on. I will hunt mainly pheasants but will probably grouse hunt once or twice per year, quail maybe once a year, and I would like to take an annual trip out west. I have several thousand acres of land available to run the dog. I run my current dog an hour five or six days per week. This includes plenty of water work. This will all be available to my next dog.

I have two basic areas of concern. The first is based on reading things and talking to people it takes tons of bird contacts to develop a pointing dog. I live in the suburbs. I cannot keep a pigeon coop. I buy pigeons most weekends for my dog. I run her on wild birds 8 months out of the year. I was a member of a preserve, but I did not particularly enjoy it, and I do not think it was too beneficial for my dog.

My second concern deals with the equipment needed to train a pointing breed. What I really like about my current dog is I trained her with tennis balls, bumpers, the occasional pigeon, and wild birds. I value simplicity. The idea of having launchers and things of that nature is not at all appealing to me.

I have looked at training programs for pointing breeds but have not been able to get the answers I am looking for so I am hoping someone here can he me out. Is it there a basic/low maintenance training program for pointing breeds? Please don't confuse this with someone who does not want to put the time or work in. I spend hours every day working with and developing my current dog. My current dog is a springer. Can you train a pointing breed with obedience, socialization, lots of varied exposure, and wild birds? Thanks for any assistance.
 
You have some valid concerns, but I think you should be just fine. Pointing dogs do train differently than retrievers, but it shouldn't be something you can't work with. It does take a lot of bird contacts to get a polished pointing dog and in my opinion, if you have wild birds you can get them on often, you can be just as successful as using planted birds. A couple of nice things about planted birds and launchers is the ability to control the situation and then just the availability of birds. Birds that flush and fly away are what really teaches a pointing dog. Most likely that is why you didn't feel the preserve was beneficial. A lot of times the birds don't fly well, can be caught and just don't portray an actual hunting situation.

As far as equipment, I'm betting the only thing I have in my supply that differs is the launchers. They are expensive and if you are only training 1 dog, I understand not wanting to make that investment. My suggestion would be to join a NAVHDA chapter. You have one right close to Des Moines. Most chapters have equipment such as launchers to use during their training days. It is also nice to get to be around other dog people, most of which who will be glad to help you out with your dog. NAVHDA focuses on training a versatile hunting dog, including upland pointing, retrieving and water work. It really sounds like it would be a good fit for you. If nothing else, contact a member of the chapter and let them know you want to stop at a training day and see what is going on. You can see a bunch of different breeds and get an idea of how they work.
 
Sounds like you already do more work than most. I dont have that kind of time everyday to work with mine in the spring and summer. Once you get the yard work/obedience down. The rest should be easy with all the field time you give the dog. My pup right now points very stylish. But she gets really close to the bird before getting super tight and solid. I like to be able to hunt muti- species so I want her to tighten up sooner when she gets the scent. I keep it simple too, I plant the bird (you can leave it in a small cage if you want, if you want to re-use the bird), and when I can see that she has the scent in her nose I "whoa" her at the distance I want. Then I make her hold it till I go in and flush. After a few days of doing this, I dont have to whoa her anymore. She is only 3 months old. After, I do plant a couple to shoot just so she sees the end result. She brings it back on her own. Sometimes she stops and mouths it a little. Shes young so it isnt a big deal yet, she does bring it back and doesnt chew on it so that's a plus in my book for not having worked her much on fetching yet other than her bringing the tennis ball and dummy back to me casually for play time.
 
In 1988, I bought my first female britt. She did not train well. Opening day, she stayed home. When she did go hunting, she did everything perfectly. The first birds she ever smelled were pointed (eight months old). The best memory is a point in a plowed field. She was honoring my male at 100 yards. Never had to say a word hunting with her except "good dog." She was my dog of a lifetime, my only breeder. Sue had champs on both sides of the pedigree.

Good genetics will make your training much easier.

Ask the breeder how far the parents range. Regardless of breed, some dogs hunt close, some like to run. If you are hunting with one dog, you'll probably want a dog that stays close (100 yards) so you can enjoy the show.
 
IsThisHeaven? said:
Can you train a pointing breed with obedience, socialization, lots of varied exposure, and wild birds?
Click to expand...

Yes you can!

Launchers are great for steadying a dog up but that isn't absolutely needed for training a pointer. And that can be done later on if you want to go that far. If you get a pup from a line with a lot of point (yes there are differences in the ages that some breeds and bloodlines will start to point) you will be fine just running on wild birds.

The good thing with wild birds is that the chances of a pup catching one are slim. The instinct to point will come out after a few wild flushes.

I ran mine on wild pheasants for about 2 months before his first season. On his first hunt we ran into 5 rooster. He pointed 4 and tracked one with the wind. We got 4 of them. He was basically trained the same way you said you trained your springer.
If you get a pointer pup out as much as you say you can it will do fine.

Have you decided on a breed yet? All can become good pheasant dogs but some have a little better tools to start with. Good genetics are a huge thing and as said before makes training a lot easier.

Tim
 
Tim,

I have not decided on a breed. To be honest, I am more concerned with the training required to get the dog where I would want it and my limitations. I would not get one just to satisfy my curiosity if it was not in the best interest of the dog.

I will probably look into some of the more popular pointing breeds (gsp, brittany, setter, etc) to get the best possible odds of early and natural pointing instinct. I will be more concerned with watching the parents and researching the breeder than the breed specifically.

I had my springer out for an hour tonight. We worked on wild birds right up to the March 15 deadline. We started on wild birds in August last year. Our hunting season started Labor Day weekend on doves and went through rabbit season the end of Febraury with wild bird work mixed in. A new pup would have the same opportunities.
 
With the time you put in with your current dog you are ahead of probably 75% of pointing dog owners when it comes to training effort. I don't think you will have any issues even without launchers and homers.

You might want to get a book like Training the Versatile Hunting Dog by Chuck Johnson. It isn't a true step by step training book but gives a lot of insight into letting a young dog train itself through exposure, often on just wild birds.

If you are concerned you might want to join a NAVHDA group. You have one close by http://www.iowahawkeyenavhda.org/ . They have training days that should help.

And you are right to make sure the parents hunt like you want a pointer to hunt. I prefer the continental breeds, including some Brittanies. They have a tendency to track and retrieve better. But there are good pheasant dogs in most breeds.
btw GSP, GWP, Drahthaars and even Brittanies will gladly point and retrieve bunnies.

Good luck,
Tim
 
I'm on my first pointer (DD), and coming from a retriever POV, the pointers do seem like more work overall. But I love dog training, so it's not really 'work' to me.

If you watch ebay/craigslist you can get a launcher for $150. Use it for a season or two, and resell it for $125, easy. I know this because I just got three this way, but you really only need one.

The launcher is really the only thing you'd want that's not a retriever thing. If you find a solid breeding, like most folks said, running you dog on wild birds, with pigeons here and there, you should be happy with the finished product.
 
Launchers are used for two reasons:

1. They allow you to mimic the "spookiness" of wild birds by flushing the birds if the dog busts in/moves as a way to steady a dog up.

2. You know where you planted the launcher so you have a little more control.

If you can find enough wild birds you will develop a good pointing dog. Maybe not a trial dog, but you'll have a good hunting dog.

And if you want a launcher, when's your birthday? Or Christmas? Haha
 
Thanks for the information provided so far. I do appreciate it.

When I mentioned excessive training gear, and launchers specifically, I was referencing more than just launchers. I mentioned only launchers because that Is the only piece of equipment I knew the name of. I have seen small cages to hold birds and several other pieces of equipment as well. I also include keeping a pigeon coop in the gear/equipment category.

It is also my understanding, bases on some things I have read and responses here, it is important that pointing breeds don't catch birds. Maybe others have had different experiences than I, but that seems to rule out a game farm. My springer traps a fair amount of preserve birds. Would guess a pointing breed with good drive would catch birds as well.

Tim recommended a book to read and I am going to look I into getting the book. Is anyone aware of a training program designed for people like me with the constraints I have? I do not trial. If I go with a versatile breed I may do the basic NAHVDA testing, but that would be about it. There are three things I need out of any dog. They have to be good at home with kids. I can address that with getting a well bred dog and exposing the dog to our lifestyle. The next two things I need are hunting related. The most important thing to me is bird finding ability. This is absolutely the most important thing for me. The other thing I need is for the dog to pick up birds so I don't have to go into the nasty stuff myself. Thanks again for all the information.
 
i did not put my two Brittanies on any live birds in training and they were dandy from the first day they hunted. If you've got a hunting dog it will hunt - just a a little fine tuning will be needed.
 
I am a springer guy (as my name suggests) and I also have a young Pointer. The only 2 pieces of equipment I picked up that I did have before were a launcher (which I already commented on) and a GPS collar (because she tends to run big). I don't keep my own birds, I just buy them before I use them. And then I run my Pointer on woodcock, pheasant, and grouse when I can in the offseason. So far it's working. But all the other equipment I had for my springer.
 
Thanks for the information provided so far. I do appreciate it.

When I mentioned excessive training gear, and launchers specifically, I was referencing more than just launchers. I mentioned only launchers because that Is the only piece of equipment I knew the name of. I have seen small cages to hold birds and several other pieces of equipment as well. I also include keeping a pigeon coop in the gear/equipment category.

It is also my understanding, bases on some things I have read and responses here, it is important that pointing breeds don't catch birds. Maybe others have had different experiences than I, but that seems to rule out a game farm. My springer traps a fair amount of preserve birds. Would guess a pointing breed with good drive would catch birds as well.
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Everyone has a different style. I let my dog catch the first 3-4 birds to get her drive up. Then I let her chase until she figured out she can't catch them. Now she is SLOWLY starting to point. But she is also only 15 weeks old.

Tim recommended a book to read and I am going to look I into getting the book. Is anyone aware of a training program designed for people like me with the constraints I have? I do not trial. If I go with a versatile breed I may do the basic NAHVDA testing, but that would be about it. There are three things I need out of any dog. They have to be good at home with kids. I can address that with getting a well bred dog and exposing the dog to our lifestyle. The next two things I need are hunting related. The most important thing to me is bird finding ability. This is absolutely the most important thing for me. The other thing I need is for the dog to pick up birds so I don't have to go into the nasty stuff myself. Thanks again for all the information.
Click to expand...

Family dog and bird finding ability will lie more with your breeding. Retrieving, if not natural, can be trained.

One thing about NAVHDA, I see it more as a training organization than testing organization FWIW. I could join, never test my dog, and still use the members knowledge to help me train my dog to my heart's desire. I've read three books, but the expertise and experience from the NAVHDA members is much more useful.
 
Prior to getting my first Brittany (which also was my first pointing dog) I had Springers with one Lab thrown in. I really didn't change my training techniques at all. My training is very basic. I emphasize first and foremost Obedience. My dogs must be obedient whether at home or in the field. After that I try and get them out into the field as much as possible and get as many bird contacts as possible. Of course this is made easier since I live in SD. My dogs basically learned on the job. As long as I could control them in the field I just let their instincts and breeding do the rest. I have always had some very good hunting dogs and family pets. I've done this without investing anything in equipment and/or birds.

With the set up you have described and the time you devote to your dogs you should have no problems. As far as the breed of pointing dog you get I would put in a plug for a Brittany. Since you already have a Springer and I assume you like spaniel type dogs a Brittany would be a great fit. I hunt my Brittany with Springers and other flushing breeds with no problem. But as with any breed, make sure you do your due diligence in selecting a breeder and a particular litter. Good luck.
 
Lack of wild birds is a common training problem. My retired brother-in-law rehomed a lab. This fall he will hunt a lab and a GSP. In February, he planned to get training pigeons. He is waffling now; forgetting how much fun bird hunting is. Trying to convince him to get pigeons.

His place would be great for pigeons. How much would you charge for a city dweller to use your pigeons? Should be an increased demand this year as conditions look good area wide.
 
My Britts have all held point (staunch) from the get go ... essentially first exposure.

I have pointed out on other recent threads what has worked for me (successfully trained and hunted behind my 5 Britts and my brothers 3) ... over the past 30 years or so.

Three month old pup at home now ... so starting fresh again. What Zeb said ... obedience and learn on the job ... and patience as best you can.

Sure, the more bird exposure the better, but it does not have to be a ton. Planted birds and a check cord are nice for keeping creeping at bay (if that becomes an issue) and working to steady ... as steady as you desire them to be. I like the check cord on planted bird training because I like to walk past my young dog on point and flush the bird ... not as common an occurrence on wild birds.

I would prefer a half dozen birds once a week or so than a bird a day.

I hate and despise launchers. Diminished scent cone and in the hands of the wrong person .. you can scare your point dog from birds for a good long time. Did not happen to me, but I have seen it first hand - reputable pro trainer no less.

Pro trainers resort to pigeons and launchers because they have to work quite a few dogs over a short period of time ... often during the summer ... They have clients paying good money for a trained bird dog and need to show results. You do not need to resort to such tactics if you chose not to.

There are other ways to restrict bird movement if you so desire.
 
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