The Low Velocity Principle

[wolfcreeknc]

I wonder if having shot leave the barrel higher than the speed of sound (1,125 ft/s, yeah it changes based on elevation) and then when it slows down coming through the sound barrier has anything to do with the pattern etc. I know it can cause issues shooting .22 rounds.
I will have to ask my professional engineer buddy about the energy loss over distance and if initial velocity slows down any quicker, there are lots of factors like wind resistance, humidity etc but all things equal it is difficult to "swallow" that a lower initial velocity-ft/lbs energy would be higher in ft/lbs energy at distance VS a faster round.
I personally am more about the old "square load" theory which leads to less deformed pellets=better patterns.
Bottom line is if it works for you don't worry what anyone else says, just show them your days bag:cheers:

 

[davidtodd]

I have done quite a few of them but only out of the muzzle loaders that I have and because the way the shells and or stuffing comes out of the barrel, not quite like a solid bullet, the readings vary more than just a little bit. anyway using my guns, the range was about 1000 fps to 1080 or so. I have shot a lot of upland game with them and out to about 30 yds, birds are not safe including geese, as they are not choked, that's about it. will hunt with the 14 ga. this week end chasing pheasants, it will be loaded with itx shot as I will be on federal wildlife land, usually it would be a mix of 1/2 and 1/2 6 and 7.5's. while the distance I shoot is a little less, my wounding loss is no different. I just happen to find these statistics fun, do they mean a lot, no, hitting the bird does.

cheers

My buddy down south used a 14 gauge cartridge gun for Sharptails when we were down south, and took a few pheasants with it as well.

The muzzle loader my son uses is a mid 1800's Chance and Sons 14 gauge, and there is not a bird safe when it is used over the dogs!:thumbsup:
that gun has never misfired either, a question he gets asked quite often
Clean them and load them properly, and , well, I don't have to tell you about that, do I, mustistuff!:cheers:
I have some ITX that i will be loading soon, as I am getting short on waterfowl loads for the cartridge guns, but may try some late season ducks and geese with my Pedersoli muzzle loader!
DHT

 

[mustistuff]

itx

have not used it much but have taken ducks with it and a number of pheasants, ducks all over decoys. I patterned it some and about 28 yds. was fine. I use the # 6. I used bismouth but then couldn't get the stuff so was forced into the itx, just gotta use something or stay home god forbid and none of it is cheap

cheers

 

[CRP]

Getting into this discussion late, but wonder why the handicap trap shooters went from 1 1/8 oz. of shot at 1200 fps to 1250 fps. Patterns are important to the guys at the 27 yard line. BUT, if the 1145 fps loads pattern better, than why go to the 1250 fps loads? Some of the new sporting clays loads are now over 1300+ fps. Is velocity more important, and maybe the patterns are still OK?

Of course, hunting and clays are two different subjects. A clay with one small chip is still a hit, but a crippled bird not bagged is not good. After having shot birds successfully with everything from 20 Ga 2 3/4" 1 oz. 1145 fps through 12 Ga 3" 1 3/8 loads 1450 fps, there are a multitude of data points to consider. When you add in chokes and shot sizes, it can get mind-boggling......

How about this, if you are having great success with your choice of gauge/choke/shot size/velocity, stay with it.

 

[mustistuff]

patterns

most of our modern shotguns using the same chokes as the old black powder guns will not perform better. black powder being what it is provided a pretty soft set back thereby not flattening many of the lead pellets, as speed picks up, the set back becomes harsher, damaging more pellets, ie: flyers, flyers mean that fewer pellets reach the target period. to over come this they added tin or antimony to the lead anywhere from about 2% up to about 6 or 7%. the harder shot withstood the set back better, more pellets stayed round and also were less likely to get out of round from barrel scrubbing. along came the shot cup, plastic wads, the better of which protected against set back and protected the shot going down the barrels. all of this helped the patterns and now we have just gotten back to what the old black powder guns did all along, pattern well. I think with the hardest of lead, nickel plated, probably, the speed corrects some reaction time and also maintain better patterns when the big boy's shoot fast clays at long range, for the rest of us, not a big deal I don't think. another thing that has helped patterns is that they can regulate the pressure curve of some of our modern powders thereby spreading peak pressure over a greater length of the barrel, a softer curve means more round pellets making it out the barrel. other than sending some of your pellets out to a testing lab, you have no way of knowing how hard they are and the mfg. just ain't gonna tell ya

cheers





cheers

 

[CRP]

While hunting last week, I met a hunter from a neighboring state,who was not only hunting pheasants but waterfowl as well. We had hardly exchanged handshakes and introductions when he launched into this rant about proper velocity and loads for hunting. I should have put my muffs on because he wouldn't shut up.

Of course, he was the expert on any shotgun subject, including pattern boards. In his view, there is no difference in killing power for shots under 50 yards regardless of gauge/shot size/velocity/choke etc, and anything over 1200 fps is a waste, and blows patterns. After watching him miss several shots under 50 yards, I couldn't help but recommend he spend more time learning how to hunt and shoot, and less time being concerned with all of the techno blather!

 

[birdshooter]

After watching him miss several shots under 50 yards, I couldn't help but recommend he spend more time learning how to hunt and shoot, and less time being concerned with all of the techno blather!

You would be correct. Learning to put the gun in the right spot is often overlooked for the magical beat all, end all pheasant load.

 

[birdshooter]

thought we killed this thing off: anyway, the first standard for speed was in fact 1050, mostly because that's about all they could get out of black powder, the 2nd std. for hunting loads were set at 1200 fps or just a little less, that was do to the feeling that trap loads couldn't go over 1200 fps and they didn't think it was a good idea to practice at one speed and then hunt with another. very recently that idea came to a halt and hunting speeds are all over the map but 1330 was never in the game. using some data from an old lyman handbook:
4 shot @ 1135 is 740fps/40 yds and 625/60yds energy ft. lbs 3.94 to 2.81
1235 780 660 4.38 3.13
1330 815 685 4.78 3.38

6 shot @ 1135 is 695 580 2.08 1.45
1235 730 610 2.30 1.60
1330 765 635 2.52 1.74

7.5 shot 1135 650 540 1.17 .81
1240 690 565 1.32 .89

1330 715 580 1.42 .93

I think this shows that what starts out faster stays faster and has more energy, slower fps shot may in fact pattern better but is not a given, using a home chronograph does not give anything other that a really good guess as to speed when using a shotgun. as you can see from the above, speed produces energy and more of it for all the shot sizes

a 1 oz of #4 pellets contains about 135
#6 225
#7.5 350
the standard seems to be that it takes 3 ft. lbs. to nicely kill a bird, from the above and at 40 yds. there are a number of ways to get there, a heavy pellet with little density in hopes of a great hit or a high density with numerous hits and be sure of getting the job done and at 60 yds. nobody should be shooting. anyway

to beat this another way, @ 40 yds, the #4 pellet at 1330 fps has lost about 39% of its speed, the #6 pellet about 43% of its speed and the 7.5 has lost about 47%. all this seems to be saying that you can't make your case as 4% loss between each of the sizes is pretty small.

cheers

I just saw your post on this now Musti,

Just for you Musti from Tom Roster who I consider the fore most authority on shotgun ballistics.

An excerpt from the whole, but interesting article below:

Does Speed Kill?

Roster writes:

The idea is not new, but the loadings are. If you search any shotshell manufacturer?s catalog you can now find 10, 12 and 20 gauge steel loadings with velocity levels above 1400 fps, up to 1675 fps. Are these high velocity loadings more effective than slower loadings?

The honest answer for most applications is: maybe. Another important answer is that for some shooting styles, yes; for other styles, no. Let?s examine the details.

The first important fact to recognize is that the physics of balls is not the same as the physics of bullets. This is particularly true where downrange retained velocity and energy are concerned. If one starts a pointed bullet with 150 fps greater instrumental velocity than another bullet of equal mass and shape from the same rifle bore, down at 60 yards it is highly probable that the 150 fps faster bullet will retain almost that full 150 fps increased velocity and thus momentum advantage over the slower bullet.

This is not true of balls. If two balls of the same shape and mass are started with one ball having a 150 fps greater instrumental velocity over the other ball, unfortunately at 40 yards, for example, the 150 fps initially faster ball will have shed the majority of the 150 fps velocity and momentum muzzle differential advantage over the slower ball.

All shotshell manufacturers now offer high velocity nontoxic shot loads ? especially steel ? with velocities well in excess of 1400 fps. How long this trend will continue remains to be seen.

http://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html

 

[birdshooter]

I think this shows that what starts out faster stays faster and has more energy,


4 shot @ 1135 is 740fps/40 yds and 625/60yds energy ft. lbs 3.94 to 2.81
1235 780 660 4.38 3.13
1330 815 685 4.78 3.38

6 shot @ 1135 is 695 580 2.08 1.45
1235 730 610 2.30 1.60
1330 765 635 2.52 1.74

7.5 shot 1135 650 540 1.17 .81
1240 690 565 1.32 .89

1330 715 580 1.42 .93

Yes the speed will still be greater but not by a lot.

Using YOUR data, Lets take #4 shot to use as an example. And of course assuming your data above is accurate.

1135 fps at the muzzle slows to 740 @ 40 yards. It retains 65% of it's initial velocity.

1235 fps at the muzzle slows to 780 @ 40 yards. Retains 63% of it's initial velocity.

1330 fps at the muzzle slows to 815 @ 40 yards. Retains 61% of it's initial velocity.

So you see it bleeds off more and more of it's advantage the further down field you get. What started out as a 195 fps advantage from 1330 to 1135 fps, has been shed to 75 fps @ 40 yards.

So.... when you throw all this together combined with the fact that the slower loads generally pattern superior to high velocity loads, yet still retain enough energy (3 Ft./Lbs from your figure) at 40 yards to cleanly kill a Pheasant, (even using 1135 fps which I have yet to see a commercial load for Phez with this low of a velocity) you can plainly see HV is not what it's all hyped up to be.

We could argue over semantics all day, every day. IN the end, we all use what works or what we want to spend or even better, what we have the MOST confidence in.

It does seem like we are beating a dead horse doesn't it.

Cheers Musti. :cheers:

 

[mustistuff]

Yes the speed will still be greater but not by a lot.

Using YOUR data, Lets take #4 shot to use as an example. And of course assuming your data above is accurate.

1135 fps at the muzzle slows to 740 @ 40 yards. It retains 65% of it's initial velocity.

1235 fps at the muzzle slows to 780 @ 40 yards. Retains 63% of it's initial velocity.

1330 fps at the muzzle slows to 815 @ 40 yards. Retains 61% of it's initial velocity.

So you see it bleeds off more and more of it's advantage the further down field you get. What started out as a 195 fps advantage from 1330 to 1135 fps, has been shed to 75 fps @ 40 yards.

So.... when you throw all this together combined with the fact that the slower loads generally pattern superior to high velocity loads, yet still retain enough energy (3 Ft./Lbs from your figure) at 40 yards to cleanly kill a Pheasant, (even using 1135 fps which I have yet to see a commercial load for Phez with this low of a velocity) you can plainly see HV is not what it's all hyped up to be.

We could argue over semantics all day, every day. IN the end, we all use what works or what we want to spend or even better, what we have the MOST confidence in.

It does seem like we are beating a dead horse doesn't it.

Cheers Musti. :cheers:

maybe but it is fun, a beer might help also, while I have taken over 20 bull elk with my 257 and all one shot kills, that doesn't make it an elk gun, shooting 338 does mean that with an added edge, ya might be able to blow a leg off the critter and still kill it. I enjoy the heck out of it, difference, maybe not much but fun

cheers