The Low Velocity Principle

[jpari]

I posted this prior to last year's opener and am re posting it in the event someone new to the forum would be interested. With Pheasant season just around the corner I thought that some of you who reload might be interested in hearing this recipe. In the American Rifleman in June of 1987 an article was published written by Ron Forsyth called "The Low Velocity Principle". Since I read it way back in 87 I have been using the following load as my go to Pheasant load with great success:

2 3/4" Wichester AA hull
Winchester 209 Primer
Winchester has discontinued the WAA12F114 wad, so, substitute the Claybuster Shotshell Wad 12 Gauge CB1114-12
20 grs. of Alliant Green Dot Powder
1 3/8 oz. of #5 shot

This load generates 9800 psi and screams along at 1075 fps. Yes, I said 1075 fps and absolutely crushes Pheasants. It is a dream to shoot and is so comfortable to shoot I have never reached for high velocity loads for Pheasant again. The bad news is that this load is only to be used with lead shot.
This low velocity principle is based upon pushing larger size shot and shot weights through air resistance more slowly thus loosing less inertia less quickly to arrive at our target at 40 yds without giving up much energy over higher velocity loads. This might be hard for some of you to believe, but, it works. If you are really interested contact the American Rifleman editor for a copy of the article and read it. They have this as well as all of their articles archived.

 

[Rooster Roaster]

Fully agree with the premise, japari. Larger lead shot carries energy quite efficiently. I have some notes from Ron Forsyth from back when he used to contribute on one of the shotgun sites. He was quite a nice gentleman and knew what he was talking about.

He listed these velocities for good lead performance.

1200 fps for size 7 and smaller
1150 fps #6
1050 fps #5
950 fps #4

My own anecdotal experience dovetails with his findings. I'm old enough to have hunted ducks for a lot of years in the old "lead shot" days. I had a 20 gauge load of 1 oz using Herco powder that killed ducks very well along with pheasants. I always kept right up with my partners using 12 gauges and lead. Even took a couple incidental geese with the loads. Some years later when I got my first chronograph I checked these loads and was wondering if they might be too hot. They were 1125 fps! I was surprised to say the least, but on hindsight I realized they threw uniform and dense patterns and hitting the target was the key ingredient.

 

[Rooster Roaster]

japari, have you patterned this load? What choke are you using, and if you have patterned it, what do the patterns look like?

 

[birdshooter]

This low velocity principle is based upon pushing larger size shot and shot weights through air resistance more slowly thus loosing less inertia less quickly to arrive at our target at 40 yds without giving up much energy over higher velocity loads.

Did the article have any data on what the energy was (ft. lbs) at 40 yards with #5 at the lower velocity and especially when compared to a more traditional pheasant load of 1330 fps of the same size shot?

I agree you don't need high velocity to cleanly kill Phez, however, shot size can make all the difference in the world between crippling and killing.

 

[jpari]

japari, have you patterned this load? What choke are you using, and if you have patterned it, what do the patterns look like?

Rooster Roaster,
I have patterned this load quite a bit. Because of the low velocity of the loads the patterns are quite even and the 1 3/8 ounces of shot helps fill in the pattern of the larger #5s. They tend to pattern more on the tight side so, I really open up my chokes. If I am hunting over pointing dogs I go cylinder in the lower barrel and IC in the upper. If I am hunting over my friends Springer Spaniel, who tends to wander out a bit farther at times, I screw in the IC tube in the lower and the Mod. tube in the upper. Using this load and these choke combinations I tend not to get allot of runners. Hope this helps.

 

[mustistuff]

loads

I think it is a bunch of crap. further more it can't be supported by science. l the guy is way off base, surely out of date and wasn't valid even back then. go to any chart that shows energy delivered for a particular size shot matched up with speed and you will see the light. about the only thing slower pellets will do beside wound game is to flatten the pellets less on set back and barrel scrubbing and with todays better wads, that can be nearly eliminated

cheers

 

[jpari]

Did the article have any data on what the energy was (ft. lbs) at 40 yards with #5 at the lower velocity and especially when compared to a more traditional pheasant load of 1330 fps of the same size shot?

I agree you don't need high velocity to cleanly kill Phez, however, shot size can make all the difference in the world between crippling and killing.

Birdshooter,
Yes, Forsyth does give some information on energy retained but, not at 40 yds, but rather at 50 yds. Here goes. He states that a #5 pellet weighs 2.6 grs. At the muzzle at 1050 f.p.s. the #5 is carrying 1.9 ft.-lbs. That same pellet of #5 again moving at 1050 f.p.s. at 50 yds. drops to only 1.55 ft.-lbs. More than enough to kill a Pheasant at reasonable shooting distances. He further states that "In practical field terms that is not a worrying loss from the striking power of the 1230 f.p.s. loads at 1.9 ft.-lbs. at 50 yds. - particularly if we take further advantage of the principle to load more shot and hence strike the target with more pellets".
His article is 4 pages long with quite a bit of information in it so I highly recommend contacting the NRA for a copy, I think that you will find it quite interesting. After my magazine fell apart I got a copy from Maureen A. Denfeld The Editorial Assistant of the American Rifleman. Hope this helps, and if you have any other specific questions I will try to answer them from my copy of the article. I am looking forward to hearing your comments on what I have provided above.

 

[jpari]

I think it is a bunch of crap. further more it can't be supported by science. l the guy is way off base, surely out of date and wasn't valid even back then. go to any chart that shows energy delivered for a particular size shot matched up with speed and you will see the light. about the only thing slower pellets will do beside wound game is to flatten the pellets less on set back and barrel scrubbing and with todays better wads, that can be nearly eliminated

cheers

Mustistuff,
It is clear that you feel very strongly about your opinion and I can respect that, however, before coming out so strongly against Forsyth's writings perhaps get a copy of his article from the NRA read it through and then form your opinion. If you still feel so strongly for the case of high velocity than continue shooting high velocity. I myself will continue shooting my reload and killing Pheasants cleanly without killing my shoulder.

P.S. I myself certainly see the need for speed when shooting steel, however when shooting large lead pellets not so much.

 

[mustistuff]

killing birds

true, what is needed generally is a decent pattern and a certain amount of energy. two things, one it is generally stated that to kill a bird cleanly 3 foot pounds are needed, this poundage needs to be placed in a potentially killing area of the bird and the foot pounds delivered from the pellets are cumulative meaning if one pellet has only 1 ft. lbs, you then need 3 hits, this is where density becomes so important and why long range shooting usually shouldn't be undertaken, ie: the lucky pellet and two, recoil if that is what one wants to avoid is caused by both speed and the weight of the shot, pressure means almost nothing is this regard, therefore you can reduce powder or reduce amount of shot but whatever, you should strive for that 3 ft. lbs of energy at a reasonable distance

cheers

 

[birdshooter]

Laws of physics are what they are. The faster something starts out the faster it will slow down, Air density/drag sees to that. So in essence, you lose much of that high velocity advantage downrange.

For years the 1-1/4 oz load @ 1330 fps was the standard for most of your so-called Pheasant loads and for the most part that is what we still see. I have used that load for years with great success even switching to a 1-3/8 in #4 for late season or windy conditions. These have always performed very well and patterned well in my gun. However, I still believe when we are talking about pheasants we need NOT focus on the velocity part so much as the load size and shot size.

A bunch of years ago I remember reading an article on a bunch of writers who descended on a big South Dakota hunting operation to test the lethality of different load sizes and shot sizes on Pheasants. To make a long story longer, when the smoke cleared #4 in a 1-1/2 oz load clearly produced more dead pheasants and fewer cripples than any other load. The #4 pellet clearly had the advantage over #6 or #5 to penetrate to the vitals or break bones better at any give distance within a shotguns normal range. The 1-1/2 oz was chosen to bring the pellet count of #4 closer to that of the 1-1/4 oz of #6. As you can guess #6 fared the worse with #5 a close second to #4.

 

[jpari]

Laws of physics are what they are. The faster something starts out the faster it will slow down, Air density/drag sees to that. So in essence, you lose much of that high velocity advantage downrange.

For years the 1-1/4 oz load @ 1330 fps was the standard for most of your so-called Pheasant loads and for the most part that is what we still see. I have used that load for years with great success even switching to a 1-3/8 in #4 for late season or windy conditions. These have always performed very well and patterned well in my gun. However, I still believe when we are talking about pheasants we need NOT focus on the velocity part so much as the load size and shot size.

A bunch of years ago I remember reading an article on a bunch of writers who descended on a big South Dakota hunting operation to test the lethality of different load sizes and shot sizes on Pheasants. To make a long story longer, when the smoke cleared #4 in a 1-1/2 oz load clearly produced more dead pheasants and fewer cripples than any other load. The #4 pellet clearly had the advantage over #6 or #5 to penetrate to the vitals or break bones better at any give distance within a shotguns normal range. The 1-1/2 oz was chosen to bring the pellet count of #4 closer to that of the 1-1/4 oz of #6. As you can guess #6 fared the worse with #5 a close second to #4.

Birdshooter,
I couldn't agree with you more. Larger quantities of larger shot are the ticket. That is the basis of Forsyth's low velocity principle. Send out larger shot sizes in larger quantities to increase pattern density at lower velocity in order to retain more energy down range.:thumbsup:

 

[mustistuff]

some physics

because of mass, heavy shot will slow down slower than will light shot, you see this all the time in rifle bullets. on the study that you quote are your sure this was done with steel and not lead? any whatever, I am coming at all these topics using a small gauge gun, shooting 4's won't give me enough pattern to harvest hardly anything, I need the speed and density and be just a bit closer, therefore I need smaller size shot and am happy with that. I count on multiply hits and not a lucky pellet.

cheers

 

[mustistuff]

Birdshooter,
I couldn't agree with you more. Larger quantities of larger shot are the ticket. That is the basis of Forsyth's low velocity principle. Send out larger shot sizes in larger quantities to increase pattern density at lower velocity in order to retain more energy down range.:thumbsup:

couple of problems here, should be considered over a beer or two. forsyth really didn't have a principle, he believe apparently that heavy shot and lot's of the stuff was the way to go and the only way he could shoot that type of load without blowing the gun up was to lower the amount of powder being used and in doing so his pellets went slower, that's all he did. you can get adequate killing power two ways, faster pellets or larger pellets, in theory you can get 6's to kill better than 4's at any range that you should be shooting pheasants just by adjusting the speed.

cheers

 

[birdshooter]

because of mass, heavy shot will slow down slower than will light shot, you see this all the time in rifle bullets. on the study that you quote are your sure this was done with steel and not lead? any whatever, I am coming at all these topics using a small gauge gun, shooting 4's won't give me enough pattern to harvest hardly anything, I need the speed and density and be just a bit closer, therefore I need smaller size shot and am happy with that. I count on multiply hits and not a lucky pellet.

cheers

You are correct Musti, small gauges present an entirely different problem.

 

[birdshooter]

couple of problems here, should be considered over a beer or two. forsyth really didn't have a principle, he believe apparently that heavy shot and lot's of the stuff was the way to go and the only way he could shoot that type of load without blowing the gun up was to lower the amount of powder being used and in doing so his pellets went slower, that's all he did. you can get adequate killing power two ways, faster pellets or larger pellets, in theory you can get 6's to kill better than 4's at any range that you should be shooting pheasants just by adjusting the speed.

cheers

But I think you are missing the point i made earlier, what starts out faster must slow down faster and as a result you aren't gaining much in speed, especially downrange where most of that velocity has dissipated quicker than a slower velocity load. Plus.... in general a lower velocity load typically patterns better with fewer flyers due to less set back pressures and there affect on shot deformation. MOre to your point of pushing a #6 faster doesn't wash either. NOw you are pushing a LIGHTER pellet even faster which means it will slow even faster than a heavier pellet at the same speed. Makes no sense to me.

If all pheasants were shot inside 30 yards then yes the velocity advantage would be greater, but inside 30 yards high velocity IMO is overkill. How much is REALLY needed to cleanly kill a Pheasant??

I think we all have our own pet loads and to say someone else is doing it wrong when the results prove otherwise is pointless. If what your using is working to your satisfaction then go with it...

 

[jpari]

because of mass, heavy shot will slow down slower than will light shot, you see this all the time in rifle bullets. on the study that you quote are your sure this was done with steel and not lead? any whatever, I am coming at all these topics using a small gauge gun, shooting 4's won't give me enough pattern to harvest hardly anything, I need the speed and density and be just a bit closer, therefore I need smaller size shot and am happy with that. I count on multiply hits and not a lucky pellet.

cheers

Mustistuff,
In my original post I said that the low velocity principle does not work with steel. Only lead! With steel it is a whole different ball game.

 

[davidtodd]

because of mass, heavy shot will slow down slower than will light shot, you see this all the time in rifle bullets. on the study that you quote are your sure this was done with steel and not lead? any whatever, I am coming at all these topics using a small gauge gun, shooting 4's won't give me enough pattern to harvest hardly anything, I need the speed and density and be just a bit closer, therefore I need smaller size shot and am happy with that. I count on multiply hits and not a lucky pellet.

cheers

My son shoots 7/8oz of shot moving pretty quick out of his 28, and when I shoot the 28 I use the same load, either 6's or 7 1/2's .
This load is getting out at about 1340SPS IIRC.
My big hammer double 12 doesn't get pushed that fast, but I tend to use more shot in the cases.
Over a pointer they all work well, but that little 28 load has taken sharptails and roosters at some distances that are on the pouter edge, for sure.
DHT

 

[mustistuff]

loading data

thought we killed this thing off: anyway, the first standard for speed was in fact 1050, mostly because that's about all they could get out of black powder, the 2nd std. for hunting loads were set at 1200 fps or just a little less, that was do to the feeling that trap loads couldn't go over 1200 fps and they didn't think it was a good idea to practice at one speed and then hunt with another. very recently that idea came to a halt and hunting speeds are all over the map but 1330 was never in the game. using some data from an old lyman handbook:
4 shot @ 1135 is 740fps/40 yds and 625/60yds energy ft. lbs 3.94 to 2.81
1235 780 660 4.38 3.13
1330 815 685 4.78 3.38

6 shot @ 1135 is 695 580 2.08 1.45
1235 730 610 2.30 1.60
1330 765 635 2.52 1.74

7.5 shot 1135 650 540 1.17 .81
1240 690 565 1.32 .89

1330 715 580 1.42 .93

I think this shows that what starts out faster stays faster and has more energy, slower fps shot may in fact pattern better but is not a given, using a home chronograph does not give anything other that a really good guess as to speed when using a shotgun. as you can see from the above, speed produces energy and more of it for all the shot sizes

a 1 oz of #4 pellets contains about 135
#6 225
#7.5 350
the standard seems to be that it takes 3 ft. lbs. to nicely kill a bird, from the above and at 40 yds. there are a number of ways to get there, a heavy pellet with little density in hopes of a great hit or a high density with numerous hits and be sure of getting the job done and at 60 yds. nobody should be shooting. anyway

to beat this another way, @ 40 yds, the #4 pellet at 1330 fps has lost about 39% of its speed, the #6 pellet about 43% of its speed and the 7.5 has lost about 47%. all this seems to be saying that you can't make your case as 4% loss between each of the sizes is pretty small.

cheers

 

[davidtodd]

I have never chronographed my black powder loads out of my hammer doubles, but I doubt very much if they are anywhere near 1,200FPS!
My hunting buddy has chronographed some low pressure loads for his vintage 16's and 10's however, and they are in the vicinity of 1100-1140FPS.
We have never had an issue killing big wild pheasants over the pointers or flushing dogs with these loads and guns, or our muzzle loaders for that matter.
we tend to over think stuff sometimes, human nature being what it is!
DHT

 

[mustistuff]

black powder loads

I have done quite a few of them but only out of the muzzle loaders that I have and because the way the shells and or stuffing comes out of the barrel, not quite like a solid bullet, the readings vary more than just a little bit. anyway using my guns, the range was about 1000 fps to 1080 or so. I have shot a lot of upland game with them and out to about 30 yds, birds are not safe including geese, as they are not choked, that's about it. will hunt with the 14 ga. this week end chasing pheasants, it will be loaded with itx shot as I will be on federal wildlife land, usually it would be a mix of 1/2 and 1/2 6 and 7.5's. while the distance I shoot is a little less, my wounding loss is no different. I just happen to find these statistics fun, do they mean a lot, no, hitting the bird does.

cheers