Steady to wing & shot

A5 Sweet 16

A5 Sweet 16

Well-known member
I was in another area of the forum, "listening" to people "talk" about their pheasant dogs being steady to wing & shot (stw&s). I'm just curious - why do you feel that's important in a pheasant dog? I get it in a duck dog. But I've never cared about it & in fact have been thankful my dogs WEREN'T stw&s. I know full well how far a crippled rooster can travel in just a few seconds, regardless of the cover, & regardless of the extent of their injuries. They've got an absolutely amazing will to survive & ability to elude capture. My springers are usually 1/2 way to the bird (or more) when it drops & I'm thankful for it. If it doesn't drop in a couple seconds, they quit the chase & resume hunting. I'm a firm believer in "every second counts" when it comes to recovering roosters. I'm not looking to be convinced I'm right or wrong -- just curious as to why some of you feel stw&s is important in actual hunting situations.
 
NC IA Tail Chaser said:
Sweet I cod not agree more with you. I feel the same way.
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And I'll second this , also. My Golden is on the move immediately; waiting to be sent...often is too late! Maybe the "steady" thing is for field trials, quail hunts and duck hunts...
 
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I agree with you Sweet. I don't want my pointing dogs steady, I want them breaking shortly after the flush. Last trip to SD, I had three dogs in pursuit of a bird that I dropped about 15 yards in front of them and we didn't recover the bird. My dogs are young, not an excuse, but still I want them on the bird as soon as it hits the ground. Another bird that flushed and got up into the 30mph wind I was able to drop but that bird probably sailed for another 50 - 70 yards and if my dogs were not in pursuit after flush I don't think we would have found it, my Brittany did a great job of tracking both in flight and then once it hit the ground. Made for a great long retrieve and she dropped the bird at my feet he took off again...made for a good video. There is a time and place for steady to wing and shot but not in the pheasant fields in my opinion.

I also love a dog that is steady to wing & shot and I try to reinforce this during my grouse and woodcock hunting. With the tight forest cover, especially during leaf on, sometimes the dogs don't see the birds flight path, so if they hold I can release them in the right direction.
 
steady to wing and shot

i agree with sweet too_Only reason i would want a dog steady to shot
was if i was a hunting guide . i would feel better about someone not shooting my dog by mistake .Especialy on low flying flushes .
That would be the only reason i can think off
 
My older GSP is broke and for the hunter it does have its ups and downs. It's nice when I take others hunting because when shooting I can keep the shooter I front of my dog (IF the bird holds). Also if there is a covey you don't have a dog busting in there like crazy if that isn't what you're into. However as others have mentioned, there is a delay in the retrieve and I too have lost a bird.

I have a 6 mo GSP and I'm not sure if I will break her to wing, shot or fully break until I release her.

I guess it all depends on what you want
 
A5 Sweet 16 said:
I was in another area of the forum, "listening" to people "talk" about their pheasant dogs being steady to wing & shot (stw&s). I'm just curious - why do you feel that's important in a pheasant dog? I get it in a duck dog. But I've never cared about it & in fact have been thankful my dogs WEREN'T stw&s. I know full well how far a crippled rooster can travel in just a few seconds, regardless of the cover, & regardless of the extent of their injuries. They've got an absolutely amazing will to survive & ability to elude capture. My springers are usually 1/2 way to the bird (or more) when it drops & I'm thankful for it. If it doesn't drop in a couple seconds, they quit the chase & resume hunting. I'm a firm believer in "every second counts" when it comes to recovering roosters. I'm not looking to be convinced I'm right or wrong -- just curious as to why some of you feel stw&s is important in actual hunting situations.
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I sit whistle my dogs on every flush when guiding! When hunting with people I know and trust I let them roll.
 
Gatzby said:
I sit whistle my dogs on every flush when guiding! When hunting with people I know and trust I let them roll.
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Totally agree. I have a pretty hard charger now. He was nearly shot 4 years ago by an idiot trying to ground swat a cripple. It is important you know who you are hunting with. I feel like whether or not he immediately charges after the shot or waits to be sent it would amount to about a wash. Although he can amaze me with his quick marks, on the birds that sail a bit he can lose the mark because he is head down and charging where he thinks the bird is. Either way I would not hunt without a dog.
 
All that matters is if you are happy with your dogs style of hunting, it's your dog and your hunt.
Most English Springer Spaniel handlers insist the dog be steady to W/S. This represents the pinnacle of control . 1- A steady dog can mark the bird much better than a dog in pursuit. 2- Additionally a non steady dog MAY disrupt other game down field if randomly allowed to chase flushed birds or missed birds .I believe those are the 2 main reasons to be steady to W/S.
I understand most folks mentioned there dog does not chase excessively on missed birds.
Hunting in open fields a dog can mark a downed bird while running easily. However they will most likely have limited success marking the downed bird in heavy cover. My preference is a steady dog , I have a 19 Month young ESS.
 
I can completely see the need for a steady dog when there are many potential shooters around or shooters whose safety practices may be questionable or unknown. Maybe there are other reasons for steady dogs in actual pheasant hunting situations. Trust that I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I don't see any way that a steady dog (whether standing or sitting) is going to see a pheasant, most of which fly reasonably low, drop 35 yards away over 5-foot-tall grass or cattails. There's just no way. In light cover - OK, that's different. If my dog sees the bird flush (which is maybe 90% of the time), he gets his eyes up as high as possible & he also sees it fall - almost 100% of those times. And he's on the spot immediately. Now, that's when shooter safety comes into play. I get it. I usually hunt alone or with one or two real good buddies. No worries. About once every 5 years I have to pass up a shot. Please explain how, in thick, tall cover, a steady dog marks birds down when his eyes are only 2 feet off the ground.
 
carptom1 said:
Totally agree. I have a pretty hard charger now. He was nearly shot 4 years ago by an idiot trying to ground swat a cripple. It is important you know who you are hunting with. I feel like whether or not he immediately charges after the shot or waits to be sent it would amount to about a wash. Although he can amaze me with his quick marks, on the birds that sail a bit he can lose the mark because he is head down and charging where he thinks the bird is. Either way I would not hunt without a dog.
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"Nearly shot 4 yrs ago"...would assume this was on one of our hunts? Maybe a Kansas hunter! Or California hunter?
 
A5 Sweet 16 said:
1- I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I don't see any way that a steady dog (whether standing or sitting) is going to see a pheasant, most of which fly reasonably low, drop 35 yards away over 5-foot-tall grass or cattails.

2- There's just no way.

3- Please explain how, in thick, tall cover, a steady dog marks birds down when his eyes are only 2 feet off the ground.
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We can agree to disagree :) I hate when people say that < .

1- When a steady dog ESS Hups on the flush they track the bird in flight. A ESS who has visually tracked said shot downed bird will be in alignment before release. You can tell this by body or head posture of the dog focused in the direction of the fallen bird . So another advantage of a steady dog is ones ability to read the dog then handle appropriately. Which segway's into ? #2 .

2- YES there is !
So if you think the dog has no idea where the bird has fallen due to the handlers read regarding the posture mentioned above. This turns into a exercise of a Blind Retrieve or Hunt Dead handling technique.

3- We do not know what the dog can see. They have much better eyesight than us . You should get on the ground and look from the dogs perspective I have , perhaps they see more than we realize. Then there is the experience level and instincts of the dog , definitely a factor. This may sound out there but the smell and direction of shot will assist the dog on the retrieve. Referring to responses 1 and 2 is how we get the job done.
 
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Peter M said:
We can agree to disagree :) I hate when people say that < .

1- When a steady dog ESS Hups on the flush they track the bird in flight. A ESS who has visually tracked said shot downed bird will be in alignment before release. You can tell this by body or head posture of the dog focused in the direction of the fallen bird . So another advantage of a steady dog is ones ability to read the dog then handle appropriately. Which segway's into ? #2 .

2- YES there is !
So if you think the dog has no idea where the bird has fallen due to the handlers read regarding the posture mentioned above. This turns into a exercise of a Blind Retrieve or Hunt Dead handling technique.

3- We do not know what the dog can see. They have much better eyesight than us . You should get on the ground and look from the dogs perspective I have , perhaps they see more than we realize. Then there is the experience level and instincts of the dog , definitely a factor. This may sound out there but the smell and direction of shot will assist the dog on the retrieve. Referring to responses 1 and 2 is how we get the job done.
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Would assume one could, necessarily, spend excessive time with the "blind retrieve" vs a dog that's on the go, when the shot is taken.

When other hunters (without a dog) request my dog's assistance, and the dog doesn't see the bird go down, it's much more difficult to find said bird, than if he was part of the initial shot- find sequence.

Guess there's no right-wrong way here...just how we hunt and handle dogs.
 
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One reason In favor of a steady dog that I haven't seen mentioned is that if a bird turns in flight, a dog running through cover may not see this and continue the wrong line, whereas a steady dog would continue to track the bird.

Also, a steady dog will get a better mark on a bird.
 
Not saying a steady dog can't get a better mark on SOME birds, but this must be where the type of hunting comes into play. A large share of my hunting is done in really thick, tall cover. My dogs are after them immediately. In cattails or really bad CRP grass, this DOESN'T mean an all-out sprint, blind to the world around them, focusing only on how fast they can chase something. This means bounding/springing/standing so they can see the flight & drop of the bird. I'm thoroughly amazed how well they mark birds down. I'm often left wondering exactly how they do it, but they almost always have a better sense than I do about exactly where that bird fell. I very much doubt a steady dog would mark a bird better, because many times (where I hunt) the only way to see the birds is to see over the cover. Neither I nor a dog can see through dense cattails. I'm sure it's possible steady dogs possess some magical skill that would allow them to mark 30- to 40-yard, low birds (which are VERY common) equally well as a bounding dog, but probably not better. Now, I realize that a bird 30 or 40 yards from me isn't necessarily that far from the dog. But roosters often practically skim the tops of the cover. In many cases, if the dog can't see over it, he/she does NOT see the bird.
 
A5 Sweet 16 said:
Not saying a steady dog can't get a better mark on SOME birds, but this must be where the type of hunting comes into play. A large share of my hunting is done in really thick, tall cover. My dogs are after them immediately. In cattails or really bad CRP grass, this DOESN'T mean an all-out sprint, blind to the world around them, focusing only on how fast they can chase something. This means bounding/springing/standing so they can see the flight & drop of the bird. I'm thoroughly amazed how well they mark birds down. I'm often left wondering exactly how they do it, but they almost always have a better sense than I do about exactly where that bird fell. I very much doubt a steady dog would mark a bird better, because many times (where I hunt) the only way to see the birds is to see over the cover. Neither I nor a dog can see through dense cattails. I'm sure it's possible steady dogs possess some magical skill that would allow them to mark 30- to 40-yard, low birds (which are VERY common) equally well as a bounding dog, but probably not better. Now, I realize that a bird 30 or 40 yards from me isn't necessarily that far from the dog. But roosters often practically skim the tops of the cover. In many cases, if the dog can't see over it, he/she does NOT see the bird.
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..."almost always have better sense than I do - where the bird fell" Isn't
that a true statement. My dog always seems to know where they are...

Judging by your remarks, you hunt SD. Tall CRP, cattails, tree groves et al. Finding roosters in this stuff is very difficult, even for the best dogs. Add additional scent from other birds that are running about and you have quite a challenge for any dog. We hunt with a black Lab, Buddy who really has a gift for finding the cripple or dead birds! Tough to fool him...
 
jonnyB said:
Would assume one could, necessarily, spend excessive time with the "blind retrieve" vs a dog that's on the go, when the shot is taken.
Guess there's no right-wrong way here...just how we hunt and handle dogs.
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You missed my point. This is a scenario where cover is to heavy for a dog to run at the time of flush and can not follow the bird in the air.
A blind retrieve is just that your Dog has no IDEA where the bird landed.
Typically on a blind the handler has a very good idea where the bird has fallen. The dog and handler work in unison to harvest the bird. The competent handler controls the dogs direction to the fallen bird .
I don't understand the to much time quote, what is the rush ?
 
Peter M said:
You missed my point. This is a scenario where cover is to heavy for a dog to run at the time of flush and can not follow the bird in the air.
A blind retrieve is just that your Dog has no IDEA where the bird landed.
Typically on a blind the handler has a very good idea where the bird has fallen. The dog and handler work in unison to harvest the bird. The competent handler controls the dogs direction to the fallen bird .
I don't understand the to much time quote, what is the rush ?
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I'm assuming he's talking about cripples running!
 
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