Steady to wing & shot

A5 Sweet 16 said:
Not saying a steady dog can't get a better mark on SOME birds, but this must be where the type of hunting comes into play. A large share of my hunting is done in really thick, tall cover. My dogs are after them immediately. In cattails or really bad CRP grass, this DOESN'T mean an all-out sprint, blind to the world around them, focusing only on how fast they can chase something. This means bounding/springing/standing so they can see the flight & drop of the bird. I'm thoroughly amazed how well they mark birds down. I'm often left wondering exactly how they do it, but they almost always have a better sense than I do about exactly where that bird fell. I very much doubt a steady dog would mark a bird better, because many times (where I hunt) the only way to see the birds is to see over the cover. Neither I nor a dog can see through dense cattails. I'm sure it's possible steady dogs possess some magical skill that would allow them to mark 30- to 40-yard, low birds (which are VERY common) equally well as a bounding dog, but probably not better. Now, I realize that a bird 30 or 40 yards from me isn't necessarily that far from the dog. But roosters often practically skim the tops of the cover. In many cases, if the dog can't see over it, he/she does NOT see the bird.
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We all have our own confirmation biases.
 
Just don't see how a dog that can't see a bird fall and get right on it, relying on a person and time to make a blind retrieve, allowing a rooster to run, hide, vanish, and any other nasty games they play, can recover as high a percentage of birds. Admittedly, I have very little experience with steady dogs, and I know a good man/dog team can do amazing things. I'd love to be shown that a steady dog is equally effective in the areas I hunt.
 
Now as I said I'm not a steady to wing and shot trainer. I am of the "get there fastest with the mostest" type and I let my dog(s) go to the fall immediately.

That said, I've seen some amazing stuff over the decades. I was blocking the corner of a field of VERY tall standing corn; must have all been over 7 feet as it was way over my head. I had my mature yellow bitch sitting at heel.

As the walkers come on, birds are flushing in front of them and going very high into a good breeze. The walkers drop a high one maybe 40 yards in front of them and probably 50 yards slant range from me and it falls maybe 50-60 rows between the dog and the bird.

I know she saw it get hit and fall because she stood up from heel, so I sent her. She took off on a very good line and before I could believe it she was back with the bird. Time wise, she had to have gone pretty much straight to it. She wasn't gone long enough to do a lot of searching for it. The walkers said they never saw her in the corn.

How did she see the end of the fall with all that corn? She might have seen the top of the arc and a slight bit after that but I was a lot higher up than she was and I didn't see much of the fall myself.

Experienced dogs can just do things that surprise me lots of times.

So, either way, bottom line is what works for you and what makes you and your dog a happy team.
 
jonnyB said:
..."almost always have better sense than I do - where the bird fell" Isn't
that a true statement. My dog always seems to know where they are...

Judging by your remarks, you hunt SD. Tall CRP, cattails, tree groves et al. Finding roosters in this stuff is very difficult, even for the best dogs. Add additional scent from other birds that are running about and you have quite a challenge for any dog. We hunt with a black Lab, Buddy who really has a gift for finding the cripple or dead birds! Tough to fool him...
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He amazes me sometimes. When hunting those 5' tall sorghum patches there is no way he should get on those birds that fast, but he still does. I am sorry but many of those birds have come back fairly lively. A 20-30 second head start would result in no bird harvested as they do nothing but run in that stuff. Does he lose an occasional bird that coasts a bit before landing? Sure he does, but I think many of those birds fail to go in the bag anyway. That is where we work a blind retrieve. I don't agree that a hunter has a better idea of where a bird lands than the dog. We worked much on retrieving when he was young, marking and such. Often times he was one of only a couple dogs servicing several hunters without dogs. He has retrieved probably a couple hundred wild roosters in his 8 years. He has a pretty good idea of where they are going down. I do think time is of the essence when getting on wild birds.
 
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alberta jonny said:
I'm assuming he's talking about cripples running!
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Never good to assume , especially in this case. The conditions I was depicting nether dog could mark said fallen bird . The steady dog could not see the drop and the running dog could not chase due to the thick cover. This May be one of those conditions when a running dog doesn't run and tries to mark the bird but cant. Now it is up to the handler who has a idea where the bird has fallen to direct there dog.
 
Great posts on both ways for retreives .i personally like my lab running under a flushed bird and hitting downed bird like a freight train in a big pile of dust.
I don't know which way is better but that Part excites me more.some times when in heavy cover my dog does not see bird just hears shot and comes charging out for retreive and I have to get her over to area where bird went down.Thats ok but she does better when she's on it from flush
 
James O said:
Great posts on both ways for retreives .i personally like my lab running under a flushed bird and hitting downed bird like a freight train in a big pile of dust.
I don't know which way is better but that Part excites me more.some times when in heavy cover my dog does not see bird just hears shot and comes charging out for retrieve and I have to get her over to area where bird went down.Thats OK but she does better when she's on it from flush
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Couple of years ago a bird went down and my Golden and Tom's Lab arrived at the bird at the same time. Both got a jaw full of bird and the tugging began. The two dog's returned, each holding half of a bird. Not good...

Here's where "steady to shot" would have worked!
 
I think it depends on what birds you are hunting the most, I like my dogs steady to shot, not shot and fall, especially if hunting quail, mostly for the safety of the dog, where on a covey rise there will be multiple shots and if steady to shot will not put itself in danger. And as far as pheasants I have not seen that it slowed my dog down that much that it wasn't on the bird immediately, always went by me while the bird was in the air!:)
 
OK, that makes me ask another question. My understanding has always been that STW&S meant that the dog didn't attempt a retrieve until sent. Is that, in fact, the technical definition, or are there variations? I'm learning that there are several ways it happens in a hunting situation, either by design or by chance. For example, is a dog who holds point until he sees a bird fall technically STW&S?
 
That all depends on the training, Steady to flush, dog breaks on the flush of the bird, Steady to Shots, dog is allowed to break at the shot, Steady to wing, shot and fall, dog stands until released. Anyway that's the way I do it.:)
 
From the pointer field trial side of things steady to wing and shot means the dogs does not move until released, if the dog takes a step after flush you are told to pick your dog up as you are out of the competition. To me steady to wing and shot is your dog stays put until you release her for the retrieve or hunt on when you miss. That is just my thoughts. Good discussion and like so many things in our field many different ways and styles.
 
In competition you are correct, and I take my personal dogs that far in training, when hunting I let them backslide to self releasing at shot; They seem to know the difference between competition and wild bird hunting, and if not I haven't found it that hard to bring them back to standing through shot.
Also in the field hunting I release my dogs with an OK, when competing I release with a pat on side. Works for me.:)
 
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