speed kills

[mustistuff]

or does it. read an article by tom roster the other day and he sort of popped my bubble. he is quoting some physics that i don't know about but basically it is this. take any ame size pellet, one going say 1200 fps and one going maybe 1400 fps. it is just plain logic that one has about 20% more energy than the other, therefore that much more killing power. that is my major premise shooting the loads i do in my 28 ga. what he is trying to convince the world of is that because of how poor a round ball flies though the air, they can be made to fly just so fast. while they start out different, by the time they have reached 60 yds. they are flying the same speed. in as much as i don't shoot that far, i still am ahead of the game but not by as much as i thought. another guy came along and was talking about how little things have changed in shooting steel. he claims it is a myth that just the increase in speed of the more modern loads are the reason hunters are having better luck killing duck. of all the things you can do to a shot shell load, the least effective change is speed. he made me feel badly also. significant changes are barrel size, good choke tubes, wads, buffer, shot size, and just maybe a day at the range. forget about speed. as you can guess, i didn't like either of these articles and they ruined my day,

cheer

 

[BrowningCitori]

or does it. read an article by tom roster the other day and he sort of popped my bubble. he is quoting some physics that i don't know about but basically it is this. take any ame size pellet, one going say 1200 fps and one going maybe 1400 fps. it is just plain logic that one has about 20% more energy than the other, therefore that much more killing power. that is my major premise shooting the loads i do in my 28 ga. what he is trying to convince the world of is that because of how poor a round ball flies though the air, they can be made to fly just so fast. while they start out different, by the time they have reached 60 yds. they are flying the same speed. in as much as i don't shoot that far, i still am ahead of the game but not by as much as i thought. another guy came along and was talking about how little things have changed in shooting steel. he claims it is a myth that just the increase in speed of the more modern loads are the reason hunters are having better luck killing duck. of all the things you can do to a shot shell load, the least effective change is speed. he made me feel badly also. significant changes are barrel size, good choke tubes, wads, buffer, shot size, and just maybe a day at the range. forget about speed. as you can guess, i didn't like either of these articles and they ruined my day,

cheer

As a good friend has said for years "speed sells and shot kills" I will take more shot at slower speed any day. My friend actually is "hoarding" 20 gauge steel shells that are 1oz and moderate speed as they are getting harder to find as the companies go to 7/8 and less to get higher speed.

 

[wisturkeyhunter]

I'm of the opinion that all the ballistic geekery in the world doesn't mean much of anything in the real world when it comes to shotguns. Find what works for you and rock on.

 

[mustistuff]

speed sells

that's another thing that was in those two recent articles. shot shell mfg. are not it this game for the hunter, they are in it for the bottom line, gimmicks sell pure and simple and in one way or the other, we succumb to them. it is pretty well known that if you take your gun with cyl. bore and put it up against a good muzzle loader that is cyl. bore, the muzzle loader will shoot a better pattern and that is because the slower speed causes less pellet deformation at set back and round balls fly better at slightly slower speeds. but, i find speed fascinating and it started out about 60 plus years ago when i first loaded my .257 roberts, being maybe a slow learner, i am still doing it.

cheers

 

[HolyMoses]

Does barrel length make a real difference when shooting bird shot?

 

[mustistuff]

Does barrel length make a real difference when shooting bird shot?

no difference, think the powder has burned by about 20"'s. size of shot has a minor effect but the pattern is controlled by the amount on constriction in the barrel and the wad if there is one. one thing to keep in mind esp. if you roll your own, otherwise you would have to take apart a shell is to check the thickness of the wad, how many slits in it and how far down the wad the slits go. the last two items control how fast the shot exits the wad. the first item, wad thickness is this: if your choke is a true mod. and the wads are the same except for the thickness of the plastic, then they will shoot differently. a wad that has petals .30 thick (common) has just reduced your choke by .30 or nearly two choke sizes. sometimes that's a big deal. by knowing some of this can save you trips to the range. another thing, several years ago and maybe still, i don't buy many shells, the point of purchase shells, cheap, one time duck and pheasant loads, beside having really soft lead, also had no wad, just a mylar wrap, those shells would shoot a wider pattern and conformed to the true barrel and choke size., this would me meaningless out to say 30 yds. but beyond, it could be a big deal. the harder the lead, the better the pattern, copper is a little better and nickel is better still. necessary, don't know. buffering will also help your pattern quite a bit but in most cases that is not necessary either, as mostly, pheasants are pretty big bird to worry too much about pattern



cheers

 

[Dakotazeb]

Does barrel length make a real difference when shooting bird shot?

Very, very little if any. Nothing you would be able to notice in the field shooting birds.

Since I've been shooting a 16 ga. with 1 1/8 oz. of lead shot at 1,300 fps versus previously 12 ga. 1 1/4 oz. of lead shot at 1,500 fps I kill roosters just as well and at the same distances with the 16 that I did with the 12. The extra velocity and a tad more shot don't seem to make any difference.

 

[mustistuff]

Very, very little if any. Nothing you would be able to notice in the field shooting birds.

Since I've been shooting a 16 ga. with 1 1/8 oz. of lead shot at 1,300 fps versus previously 12 ga. 1 1/4 oz. of lead shot at 1,500 fps I kill roosters just as well and at the same distances with the 16 that I did with the 12. The extra velocity and a tad more shot don't seem to make any difference.

that ga. and that load is one of the finest shooting loads that can be had, the frosting would be that the 16 ga. is on a 16 ga. frame and not placed on a 12 ga. frame which by the way, just about ruined the 16 ga.

cheers

 

[HolyMoses]

Good info....I may have to go to the range tomorrow and do some experimenting. All this talk has me wondering how the various different types of loads actually work compared to each other.

 

[HolyMoses]

Very, very little if any. Nothing you would be able to notice in the field shooting birds.

Since I've been shooting a 16 ga. with 1 1/8 oz. of lead shot at 1,300 fps versus previously 12 ga. 1 1/4 oz. of lead shot at 1,500 fps I kill roosters just as well and at the same distances with the 16 that I did with the 12. The extra velocity and a tad more shot don't seem to make any difference.

Kind of what I thought, but I see guys, especially waterfowlers, touting around these long barrels and always wondered if it made a lick of difference. Obviously a cut off super short barrel will make a difference, but as noted above, I figured by a certain length, it became a mute point.

As long as I stay above 20", I should be good. :cheers:

 

[mustistuff]

Good info....I may have to go to the range tomorrow and do some experimenting. All this talk has me wondering how the various different types of loads actually work compared to each other.

you know of course you can go crazy doing this. if you pattern the gun, use a rest and the bottom line is the pheasants don't care what they get hit with. fun non the less . in my mind the classiest shell out there is the fiocchi golden pheasant, reasonably priced, good speed and nickel shot. nobody comes close to it. i don't use it as i roll my own but i do shoot copper on upland birds, copper or nickel will give you a better pattern if you think you need one, they are harder, more round, esp. the nickel, and they go through the feathers better and by quite a bit. good luck

cheers

 

[mustistuff]

Kind of what I thought, but I see guys, especially waterfowlers, touting around these long barrels and always wondered if it made a lick of difference. Obviously a cut off super short barrel will make a difference, but as noted above, I figured by a certain length, it became a mute point.

As long as I stay above 20", I should be good. :cheers:

waterfowl hunters and turkey hunters are more likely to aim their guns and longer barrels give a better sighting plain and that is just what you don't want in upland hunting, that is to aim, point is what ya do. they don't shoot harder or longer

cheers

 

[HolyMoses]

you know of course you can go crazy doing this. if you pattern the gun, use a rest and the bottom line is the pheasants don't care what they get hit with. fun non the less . in my mind the classiest shell out there is the fiocchi golden pheasant, reasonably priced, good speed and nickel shot. nobody comes close to it. i don't use it as i roll my own but i do shoot copper on upland birds, copper or nickel will give you a better pattern if you think you need one, they are harder, more round, esp. the nickel, and they go through the feathers better and by quite a bit. good luck

cheers

I need to zero an AR I just put together anyway, so I will take the shotgun and see how they do. I have a bunch of shells in the safe from over the years and it would be nice to know if perhaps some of them should be fired from a certain gun. I ain't about to keep switching chokes, but if a particular round shoots better out of my 870 than my O/U, it would be nice to know.

 

[wisturkeyhunter]

Barrel length is about handling, not pattern or velocity.

Short barrels suck for longer shooting....

 

[Dakotazeb]

that ga. and that load is one of the finest shooting loads that can be had, the frosting would be that the 16 ga. is on a 16 ga. frame and not placed on a 12 ga. frame which by the way, just about ruined the 16 ga.

cheers

I shoot a Sweet Sixteen which is on it's own frame. In fact the A5 20's were built on the 16 ga. frame. I also shoot a 16 ga. Citori which is built on a modified 20 ga. frame. I agree, it would make no sense to have a 16 on a 12 ga. frame.

 

[oldandnew]

Barrel length is meaningless with modern smokeless powder. The British sports of the last century researched all things ballistic with shotguns. Field studies, theories, practices, innovative variations. Most of this can be researched on line. With lead and black or smokeless SHOTGUN powders, there data is as good now as it was back then. At the end of the day, effective velocity was achieved at a velocity of 1000- 1200 foot per second. Surprising low pressure, between 6500-9000. The current fixation on speed has nothing to do with lead and everything to do with STEEL. Steel being inferior, need speed to function at all as shot. Hence we get the supersonic, 3 1/2" 12's, "weirdly" shaped shot, all are steel shot innovations. If you shoot lead, a bigger sized ,pellet, travelling 1200 ft. per second will suffice, depending on game. You can use more shot in 10 gauges, which is why they were popular. If you increased velocity over the capacity of the lead shot, and the capacity of the bore and components, you blow patterns. If you blow 1500 foot per second lead shot, you will destroy the pattern, both string wise, and distribution, make your nose bleed, pray your shooting a gas auto, or have a great recoil pad, with ear protection. All other "solutions" are for steel shooting or marketing material. As I have said before fishing lures are to "catch" fishermen! Lead shot ballistically is a 1900's essay. Size of bore, practice, big shot has more shock power over distance, more practice, need confidence that your skills don't need some snake oil ointment or fancy names to work.

 

[mustistuff]

speed

Barrel length is meaningless with modern smokeless powder. The British sports of the last century researched all things ballistic with shotguns. Field studies, theories, practices, innovative variations. Most of this can be researched on line. With lead and black or smokeless SHOTGUN powders, there data is as good now as it was back then. At the end of the day, effective velocity was achieved at a velocity of 1000- 1200 foot per second. Surprising low pressure, between 6500-9000. The current fixation on speed has nothing to do with lead and everything to do with STEEL. Steel being inferior, need speed to function at all as shot. Hence we get the supersonic, 3 1/2" 12's, "weirdly" shaped shot, all are steel shot innovations. If you shoot lead, a bigger sized ,pellet, travelling 1200 ft. per second will suffice, depending on game. You can use more shot in 10 gauges, which is why they were popular. If you increased velocity over the capacity of the lead shot, and the capacity of the bore and components, you blow patterns. If you blow 1500 foot per second lead shot, you will destroy the pattern, both string wise, and distribution, make your nose bleed, pray your shooting a gas auto, or have a great recoil pad, with ear protection. All other "solutions" are for steel shooting or marketing material. As I have said before fishing lures are to "catch" fishermen! Lead shot ballistically is a 1900's essay. Size of bore, practice, big shot has more shock power over distance, more practice, need confidence that your skills don't need some snake oil ointment or fancy names to work.

i am pretty up to speed on older shotgun ballistics such as many of them are or were. while shooting any of my muzzle loading shotguns i can very easily get my loads of powder vs. shot out of balance and they will shoot the nicest donut hole you ever saw. i have never heard nor seen a donut hole using modern stuff. might because the loads we receive either as shells or data have taken care of that imbalance. my muzzle loader's shoot at about 1050 and out to about 36 yds. do about as well with them as i do with anything else and have taken a wide variety of birds including geese with them. the main problem with very high speed lead loads is how to cushion the shot on set back, that is protecting the shot from getting flattened upon ignition or pressure from the sides of the barrels. what i have done to over come some of this with my turkey gun, actually my o/u 28 ga. is i have gone to nickel shot, cork in the bottom of the shot cup, buffering, and a mylar wrap inside the shot cup. and have the stuff going about 1540 fps. at 40 yds, no turkey is safe. why do i do it, cause i find it interesting and fun and have never seen the dispersion of shot or holes in the pattern. however it is well known that the least return you can get out of your shells is speed.

cheers

 

[steele]

If I did the math right, a bird crossing 30 yards out, estimated moving at 30 mph: shot moving at 1,500 fps would gain 8 inches on shot moving at 1,200 fps. Here's the question, would that make much of a difference? Seems like sometimes I get behind a bird and can't catch up. Also, since pheasants are tough, would the extra 300 fps make a difference in a bird that is knocked down vs one that flutters away?

 

[mustistuff]

math

i think your math is pretty close, depending your choke and ga., you have about a 30" spread and maybe a 4 ft. shot string at that range, less if shooting steel. 8"' s is the diff. between a body shot and a tail shot, depends on what you want to hit. actually there are other things that come into play, like maybe luck and whether you are hitting the bird with the front or rear of the string. most of us are lucky to hit anything. the difference in speed has not much to do with you hitting the bird but as the pellets are going faster they are hitting with about 25% more energy, that's a big deal, it would be like hitting the bird with #5's when you are using #6's or in other words one #5 in a vital area would kill the bird as opposed to needing 2 #6's, most pheasants by the way are hit about 6 times in vital areas, 3 ft. lbs. of energy being needed to kill the bird quickly. a # 6 pellet going 1200fps at 40 yds. has 2.23 ft. #'s of energy and at 20 yds. has 3.49 #'s for you long range shooter's it drops to 1.55. it appears that for every 100 fps you gain about .23 ft lbs. of energy, maybe not that big a deal so in your example it would add about 2/3 ft. lb. and get you to nearly the req. magical 3 ft. lbs. you need to kill the bird with a one pellet hit. oh well!

cheers

 

[oldandnew]

If I did the math right, a bird crossing 30 yards out, estimated moving at 30 mph: shot moving at 1,500 fps would gain 8 inches on shot moving at 1,200 fps. Here's the question, would that make much of a difference? Seems like sometimes I get behind a bird and can't catch up. Also, since pheasants are tough, would the extra 300 fps make a difference in a bird that is knocked down vs one that flutters away?

I think you should know the gun, and the circumstance. as said before, practice and more practice, I know it's harder to do, shooting ranges, chronographs are harder to find, might have to reload. I assume the beautiful pattern will make the difference in my shot placement difficulty. I think all of us are behind rather than being out front. Best shots I have made I lead what I believed were outrageous leads, only to crush the bird, like I knew what I was doing! My concern is with high velocity, a myriad problems arise, recoil anticipation, reloading tolerances, exchanges in components in the shell, ( they don't send you an e-mail), long shot strings, holes in your pattern, ( it matters little, the stationary target board, It's when that shot actually arrives!), It's frustrating to be on target, and see the bird unscathed, because he flew through the pattern with little wear to show for it. Long or short barrel will be a personal decision, are you a swing through shooter, or a point and probe shooter? I am definitely a point and shooter, short barreled light handling gun, any gauge, dog is more importance to me, a real nice pointing dog makes me an expert! .