spaniels and heeling...wow!

C

chrokeva

New member
Hi,
I am new to this forum and to gundogs in general but have trained and trialed herding dogs in the past. I now have a 7 month old field bred English Cocker that I have found very challenging on a leash. She is wonderful off leash, never runs up on another person or dog and has what I would consider a excellent recall, however on leash it is a whole different story. I really can't say I have ever worked so hard at teaching a dog to walk nicely on a leash in my life (and I have trained a lot of dogs). After what seems like many months of working at loose leash walking I have started to work on heel work. I have resolved myself that she is not a border collie so I am not asking for perfection but the best I have been able to get she is about 1 foot ahead of where she should be for proper heeling. She seems to be somewhat comfortable in this position and requires few corrections but if I insist she stay in the proper heel position I am constantly correcting her. I am wondering if this is a spaniel/gundog thing? She just wants to be slightly out ahead of me and I am tired of fighting over this 1 foot as it feels like it is ruining our relationship. I have never trained with a prong collar and do not want to start now so that is not a good option for us. Should I just let her get away with a less than perfect heel and chalk it up to her being a spaniel or should I insist on more perfection? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Jackie
 
It's certainly not a spaniel/gun dog issue. She should heel just like you would expect any other breed to do. Sometimes you just get a tough one. Sounds like she is still trying to be the Alpha. I'd stay with your training but you do have a young dog so don't push the issue to fast. Maybe you need to take a break from the heel training for a month. It could also be a maturity issue with your dog. Good luck.
 
What Zeb said. :)

My rule of thumb is that I don't have to be smarter than my dog; I just have to be more stubborn.

I'm sure you've done the "quick turn around every time the dog moves ahead" technique, so that suddenly the dog is behind you and you're moving away in a different direction.

But at 7 months, relax please. You will win. I promise.

Is puppy.
 
Thank you for putting this back into perspective for me. I will try to remember that I need to just be more stubborn than her to win this battle :).
Overall she is a very nice little dog but she is somewhat hard headed in some matters.....I guess that just comes with a dog that has so much tenacity.
 
Have you ever used a halti collar? They're the best training collars in my opinion.
 
I have not used a halti collar and would not be opposed to trying it but my concern with any training collar is that I worry that the dog learns quickly when they have it on and only behave (i.e. don't pull) when they have the training collar on. Do you find that the case with the halti collar? I have been told that dogs almost always know when they have the prong collar on and will pull when it is not on so that is one of the big reasons I have stayed clear of the prong.
 
No, I've never seen a dog that is purposely defiant once it knows exactly what is expected of them. Remember, every dog is different; some soft, some stubborn, some too smart for their own good and some dumb as a rock and it takes a different approach to train each type. I like the halti because it is a very soft but effective correction, you can walk the hardest pulling dog with one finger once they get use to it. Mine will heal with or without the halti, off leash or loose leash now that they know exactly what heal means. Good luck with the pup, spaniels are wonderful dogs.
 
chrokeva said:
Hi,
I am new to this forum and to gundogs in general but have trained and trialed herding dogs in the past. I now have a 7 month old field bred English Cocker that I have found very challenging on a leash. She is wonderful off leash, never runs up on another person or dog and has what I would consider a excellent recall, however on leash it is a whole different story. I really can't say I have ever worked so hard at teaching a dog to walk nicely on a leash in my life (and I have trained a lot of dogs). After what seems like many months of working at loose leash walking I have started to work on heel work. I have resolved myself that she is not a border collie so I am not asking for perfection but the best I have been able to get she is about 1 foot ahead of where she should be for proper heeling. She seems to be somewhat comfortable in this position and requires few corrections but if I insist she stay in the proper heel position I am constantly correcting her. I am wondering if this is a spaniel/gundog thing? She just wants to be slightly out ahead of me and I am tired of fighting over this 1 foot as it feels like it is ruining our relationship. I have never trained with a prong collar and do not want to start now so that is not a good option for us. Should I just let her get away with a less than perfect heel and chalk it up to her being a spaniel or should I insist on more perfection? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Jackie
Click to expand...

PM sent from a fellow FBECS owner. She sounds like a wonderful FBECS puppy to me.:10sign:
 
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Heeling stick and a choke collar. Teach the dog where its space is and that if it ventures out of it there is going to be a correction. Keep the pressure on. Once it understands and you move to collar conditioning, you will see improvement.
 
heeling

once the dog has some idea of what it is supposed to be doing and when it is doing it kinda right, I slap the side of my leg,.every time I go for a walk and or lesson, I slap my led, before long you will never have to say heel, kinda classy actually and as your buddy hasn't thought of it, will be amazed at how clever you and the dog are. the real purpose of it is to have your dog at heel, behaving, should you want it under control as you approach some special cover, flush a duck etc, and you can do so without talking and alerting all the game in the area. just a thought

cheers
 
mustistuff said:
once the dog has some idea of what it is supposed to be doing and when it is doing it kinda right, I slap the side of my leg,.every time I go for a walk and or lesson, I slap my led, before long you will never have to say heel, kinda classy actually and as your buddy hasn't thought of it, will be amazed at how clever you and the dog are. the real purpose of it is to have your dog at heel, behaving, should you want it under control as you approach some special cover, flush a duck etc, and you can do so without talking and alerting all the game in the area. just a thought

cheers
Click to expand...

This is what I have been doing a lot of lately, along with a snap of the fingers from time to time. I am trying to get the "no noise" communication down pat for the sneaky roosters :D
 
Some great suggestions....thank you! Luckily many things come natural to her so I guess having to work extra hard at leash work is not so bad when I look at the big picture. Overall just loving this little dog :)
 
I don't agree with those posts who've said she's "trying to be Alpha" or that she's challenging you. She's just being a Cocker. They're supposed to be out front, seeking, checking, smelling, & being "cockery". You might be able to achieve the heeling standard you're looking for but you will do it at the expense of something else. Pressure on a Cocker is like pressure on a balloon. When you squeeze one place, sometimes the result pops out in another (pointing, vocalizing, hardmouth, etc.).

Go watch a Cocker field trial where the best examples of the breed are competing. You will see handlers walking their Cockers in the gallery while other dogs work but you won't likely see the "obedience" standard of lose leash heeling (head at your knee). Some handlers even resort to looping the lead under the dog's belly to keep them from pulling but since they're only 25 lbs or so, its really not that big of a deal. You should be able to walk her on a lead w/out her pulling (too much), but you should expect her inquisitiveness to draw her off course from time to time.

Cockers are impish little dogs with low impulse control & a short attention span. They have excellent noses, courage, memory & the ability to make you laugh, but they aren't obedience dogs & they're not for everybody.

My advice to you is to pick your battles. You can't win them all. Remember the old saying, " A Labrador is born half trained & a spaniel dies half trained". It's an exaggeration but there's a certain truth to it.
 
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haha now that you mention the balloon analogy ever since I started insisting she heel her delivery has kind of gone downhill. She use to bring birds/bumpers straight back to me and now she runs past me....wonder if it related now :)
I don't see it as her pushing me around just a bit excited about everything going on around her...I do think she mostly wants to please me.....at least if it fits into her agenda...haha. Seriously if I wanted a dog that wanted to please me all the time I would have picked another border collie but I wanted a dog that makes me laugh and she does that in spades :)
 
chrokeva said:
haha now that you mention the balloon analogy ever since I started insisting she heel her delivery has kind of gone downhill. She use to bring birds/bumpers straight back to me and now she runs past me....wonder if it related now :)
Click to expand...

The best way to deal with that is to move to a spot where she can't run past. (Your back to a wall or truck)

Cockers are not like other dogs. And they are not even really related anymore to the American cockers most people think of when they hear the term. I've described them as reminding me of a 28 gauge shotgun. You look at that little shell & you can't believe it can be very effective. Then you start turning targets to dust.

Cockers punch above their weight largely because of their attitude. Good trainers work "with" rather than against the dog that's in front of them.

Good luck
 
Nimrod sounds like a man with sensible experience to me. I have never owned a cocker. I have only hunted with them once (natty). What I will say is that perfect obedience is more about my ego than anything else. I used to try to have it at all times with the dogs I have hunted with, and I think at times it affected them in other areas ( the balloon theory). What I have realized is if the dog is nails in the field, I can accept some misgivings when we are not hunting.

PS. I have owned border collies for years, you can't compare anything to them. I swear at times they were the smartest mammal in the house by a long shot:)
 
chrokeva said:
haha now that you mention the balloon analogy ever since I started insisting she heel her delivery has kind of gone downhill. She use to bring birds/bumpers straight back to me and now she runs past me....wonder if it related now :)
I don't see it as her pushing me around just a bit excited about everything going on around her...I do think she mostly wants to please me.....at least if it fits into her agenda...haha. Seriously if I wanted a dog that wanted to please me all the time I would have picked another border collie but I wanted a dog that makes me laugh and she does that in spades :)
Click to expand...

Everyone wants a dog that wants to please all the time. Heck then we would never need advise or a trainer.

As far as delivery, sounds like the dog is doing exactly whatever the dog wants to do. Without doing thorough obedience training you have no basis for anything. Until you take control and show your dog who is running the show it will continue to run over you. Heeling issues has no progressed into delivery issues. Delivery issues will progress into quartering to far away in the field. Quartering to far away in the field will progress to ignoring coming when called. Not coming when called will result in blowing birds out of the field which will progress to losing all your hunting partners.

Sounds like the dog needs a bit firmer hand. Try to join a training a group to help out with obedience.
 
Here is my cocker doing some water retrieves. Her delivery is pretty good at times but I would be lying to say she is perfect all the time. Still it would be hard for me to say the dog it doing "exactly whatever she wants to do" as you state.
I'm sorry but this pup is not even 7 months old and you already are telling me that I have screwed her up and need to take her to a training group to fix her. Honestly I am a bit insulted that you have made the statements you did. Maybe I do need to real her in a bit but she is just now at a age that starts to happen...right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerco6rE6Gc
 
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Training groups are great for everyone and you will find that they are great fun as well. I have known a lot of people who thought they had great dogs until they joined us training. Learning from others is a great thing. Sorry you fell "Insulated". Just letting you know that you can not expect your dog to do other things until you have completed obedience training. If your having trouble teaching "Heel" then I think a training group could be very beneficial. Amy Dahl used to have some good video's on her website about basic training. Don't know if it is still there or not. Also Dobbs used to have a helpful website.
 
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