Range-Pointing Dog

V

V-John

Active member
Ok, before I start this thread, I'd like to state that I'm not trying to start an arguement but I'd like to start a discussion on this topic here. It seems that range is subject to a lot of variables, whether it be cover or game hunted, and such. In my personal experience, the enjoyment of the hunt is watching the dog run, and work. It has nothing to do with the number of birds that I shoot. Watching my dogs point birds is satisfing enough for me.
Before I go much further, let me state that...

I'd rather hunt quail then anything.
I field trial.
The terrain that I hunt is more open (hopefully)
I hunt with pointy dogs, and my partners have pointy dogs.
I do NOT shoot birds that aren't pointed. I do NOT shoot birds that I walk up. I do NOT shoot birds the dog puts up.

So, I want my dogs to run, and cover ground. Whatever their range is, I'm comfortable with.

If they don't point the bird, it's MY fault their training is lacking.

What is your comfortable range with the dog? Why?
I was riding a brace at the training seminar, and a shorthair got out maybe 50-100 yards, and the owner called the dog back. I asked why, and he said he wasn't trying to train a field trial dog, but a hunting dog. That got me to thinking...
My dogs, they field trial, and hunted 45 days last season. I didn't know that one was exclusive of the other.
Someone help me understand why pointy dogs need to be kept in so close. Especially if you don't shoot non-pointed birds. Flushing dogs, you bet. I get that.
Again, I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand a different point of view. Let's not argue, just have a good discussion.
 
My comfortable range is generally speaking the range that i feel like my dogs can properly handle the birds and cover the ground needed. When i am hunting quail in tight cover i don't need my dog more then 50-75 yds out, pheasants about the same....When chasing chukars and huns that range doubles at least...
I think its just the comfort level of the person owning the dog.
 
It really depends.. But if my dog was only getting out 50-75 yards I wouldn't be very happy. Here's my opinion, for what its worth. Most hunting dogs of the pointing variety aren't trained well enough to really range out. They aren't broke to flush, they don't back, and they don't know how to work wild birds. Thats not a bash against hunting dogs, because guys kill a ton of birds over them, but from what Ive seen, a lot of guys don't mind if their pointing dogs bust birds or point birds, as long as its done close enough to get a shot. Because of that, many guys don't want their dogs to range out very far. Thats how I grew up hunting over pointing dogs. We got some great points, and we got some great flushes, but more importantly, we shot a few birds now and then. We had a blast and that's what was important. However, now im like you V-John.. I hunt my dog and she spends a lot of time with the trainer on the field trial circuit. Ive began to see what a well trained pointing dog who has been put on a lot of wild birds can really do. Because of that, I want a dog who hauls arse and runs big. I don't care if I can see her, because I use a Garmin and I know exactly where she is at all times. If shes at 500 yards and still handling.. More power to her. More realisitic though when Im hunting her off foot is 200-300 yards. Shes a lot closer in heavy cover, and bigger in areas where you can see her for miles. A good dog will adjust accordingly and find birds. If my dog is finding a lot of birds she runs closer. But if she isn't, she gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger until she finds birds. Thats exactly what I want from a dog.......... Since shes going to be running in several Horse Back All Age championships field trials the next several months, I want her to run as big as possible. When guys say they want a hunting dog, and not a trial dog, it tells me they usually don't understand what a trial dog really is. I foot hunt my trial dog all the time. She understands the difference between running off foot for 4-5 hours and running off a horse for 1-1.5 hrs. Off foot, shes a 4-6 MPH dog on the GPS. She will cover anywhere from 15-25 miles in a hunt. Off a horse in a trial situation, you can easily double that 4-6 MPH speed because she doesn't pace herself to hunt all day.
 
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If I am hunting alone or with just my usual huntin' buddy I let my Brittany range as long as I can see him. If I am in a group I keep him closer.
 
I have a question for you guys with big ranging pointers. When your pup points a bird at 500yards its going to take you a good 7-10 minutes to cover that 1/3 of a mile. Do most of the roosters hold for you that long? I am being serious in my question because my dog is still pretty young but even at 100yards out alot of the time the bird has moved on by the time I get there. My dog has a good nose and I have seen him point a birds from 20 yards so its not like he is crowding them but without the perfect wind a lot of times he points in the 10 yard range. I don't get out enough to not shoot a bird when the opportunity arises. My dog is steady to flush so even if one wild flushes on us he will mark where it goes down and either retrieve the shot bird or hunt and point the bird in it's new location (thats about the only time he really ranges out).

Personally I enjoy my dog being a little closer and being able to get on his points quickly.
 
V-John said:
So, I want my dogs to run, and cover ground. Whatever their range is, I'm comfortable with.

If they don't point the bird, it's MY fault their training is lacking.
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I'm with you on letting the dog range to what is natural for them providing they're trustworthy to stand their birds until you get there. Most pointing breeds have the pointing instinct inbred. You as the trainer bring out that intensity by exposing them to as many birds as possible. But you need that frequent exposure to birds early on and hunting areas with little or no birds will only delay what you (the handler) can't teach them and that is how to handle wild birds.
What is your comfortable range with the dog? Why?
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I'm comfortable walking behind a well trained Pointing breed out to 100-150 yards or slightly more depending on the cover. Most places I hunt it ends up being less that that though. I mainly hunt Pheasants and late in the year they can be very skittish and may not hold for any dog unless trapped. It also depends on the cover as dogs will shorten up or stretch out depending how heavy it is.

My dogs, they field trial, and hunted 45 days last season. I didn't know that one was exclusive of the other.
Someone help me understand why pointy dogs need to be kept in so close. Especially if you don't shoot non-pointed birds.
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As far as I'm concerned both types (trial bred vs non trial stock) hunt and both hunt well, just a little differently. I know plenty of guys who trial and hunt. The dogs are smart enough to know when it's time to hunt and when it's time to compete. I think it's personal preference more than anything whether you wish to hunt with a dog bred to run big or one that naturally hunts closer and maybe a little more methodical for the walking gun. That being said, even a trial dog will shorten up if the cover dictates it.

Lastly, it is much tougher to get a dog to range out then it is to keep one in.

FWIW
 
I think the range a person wants in a dog also depends on where a person hunts. Living in Pennsylvania you hunt wild grouse or woodcock and I wouldn't want a dog ranging out real far in that kind of cover. Or you hunt put and take pheasants in conditions that could become crowded. If my dogs ranged out 500 yards they would be hunting for somebody else in a different field.
 
For me the Range of the dog depends on several factors. A seasoned dog will automatically adjust his range based on field conditions, terrain, and competition from other dogs, as well as adjustment by the owner. At home I hunt allot of open ground in OK & TX, dogs will push out a few hundred yards easily. The main thing is that the dogs will hold and honor until I reach them.

As the dogs get older and wiser, they will tend to want too relocate or creep without busting the birds. Now ask yourself one thing, do you trust them. I do not trial my dogs, so this is expectable for my style of hunting. I only allow this if Trust and am comfortable with the dogs ability Not too chase or bust the birds. This is normally a 2-3 year old seasoned dog not a pup. Trusting the dog’s nose and ability to relocate was something I had to get used too. But it works and they are smart enough if you trust them. Did I have failures along the way, Yes. But I corrected the issue each time.

Normally, my first trip of the year in SD,NE or KS is a real test of nerves for me. The first few drops, I normally have to set the range that I want the dogs to work at, based on the type of terrain or crop field. I do this by using the beeper locator. I have trained the dogs to check back in by using the locate button.

I was real surprised a few years back when hunting grouse in the WY Mountains, they ran hard but did not push out beyond what I was comfortable with. I never commanded them they adjusted based on the terrain.

Bottomline: we all have our own unique style and preferences, so range of a dog is what you make of it, just don’t turn into one of those “whistle blowers”.
 
Ideal range to me is a matter of the level of trust you have in your dog, the terrain you are in and the type of bird you are hunting.

My dog is not as big a running dog as John's, but we hunt together a lot. All of the dogs can be trusted to stand their birds, back each other, and adjust their range to the cover. So why not let them cover as much ground as possible for you? That is what they are breed to do.

When the dogs are young and have not had a lot of wild bird exposure, you are going to have some mistakes, or learning opportunities. That one of the things that makes a good bird dog in the long run.

If your experienced dog is out 500 yards or more on quail, it doesn't matter much how long it takes you to get there, the birds will still be there. Birds like pheasants, you are going to have some of them that will be out of there before you get there. But the more birds your dog works the more likely the bird will be there when you arrive.

But not everyone lives in an area where they can put their dog into good numbers of wild bird often enough develop the bird handling skills to the level the dog will need to hold them at long range till you get there. I would think that it would be difficult if not impossible to develop that without wild birds. Pen raised / released birds just aren't as spooky and will let the dog get away with things that a wild bird will not.

But given a dog that is trustworthy on its birds, some people would still prefer to have the dog withing visual range much of the time. I fall into this category. I get more pleasure watching my dog work birds than I do shooting them now. But I have shot lots of birds, and it doesn't cost me $400 in gas and a weeks vacation to hunt birds.

Most of us consider the dogs part of the family. Once we have them they are with us for life. The dog is going to have a natural range.

You got to dance with the one that brung ya :cheers:
 
Not trying to be a smart azz, but I want the dog to range as far as the closest bird... To go as fast and as wide as she can without over-running her nose and the cover. If I kick up birds on the way to where she is pointing or off running, then she is ranging too far.

You can't really put a set-in-stone number on that and say the dog's effective range should be X, but we can all tell when a dog isn't running big enough or when it is covering a lot of ground but not being thorough enough.

As an example, I was thrilled as can be when Daisy was stretching her legs and running bigger on prairie chickens last Thursday because those jokers are few and far between on a really vast landscape. Alternatively, I was really frustrated with her two years ago when she was pointing pheasants 100 yards ahead of me and I kicked up two myself on the way to her.

Her first couple seasons she was way too close on prairie chickens and a little too far out on pheasants, but I've been seeing improvements on both birds last season and so far this season.

Most of my dog 'training' is on the job so I don't expect her to get everything right the first time. Fortunately I think I got a smart one, and she is figuring out when to hit the gas and when to slow things down... I think...
 
I have my dog trained to hunt within 75 yds. I'm getting old, I'm getting fat, and I'm pretty well out of shape. It takes me awhile to catch up to her and if she's locked up at more then 75 yds I could possibly have a heart attack trying to get to her fast enough. My family loves to eat wild game and that certainly goes for birds. So for me its about getting a bird or two for a meal. These northern MN Pheasants are hunted so hard, and are so few and far between to begin with, that each bird, no matter how we come about it, is considered a great victory. We do pretty well with each other actually. She's learned my style and I've learned what she likes to do and excells at. We are usually hunting alone and we seem to find birds most days. Hitting them however is another topic all in its own.
 
jetjockey said:
It really depends.. But if my dog was only getting out 50-75 yards I wouldn't be very happy. Here's my opinion, for what its worth. Most hunting dogs of the pointing variety aren't trained well enough to really range out. They aren't broke to flush, they don't back, and they don't know how to work wild birds. Thats not a bash against hunting dogs, because guys kill a ton of birds over them, but from what Ive seen, a lot of guys don't mind if their pointing dogs bust birds or point birds, as long as its done close enough to get a shot. Because of that, many guys don't want their dogs to range out very far. Thats how I grew up hunting over pointing dogs. We got some great points, and we got some great flushes, but more importantly, we shot a few birds now and then. We had a blast and that's what was important. However, now im like you V-John.. I hunt my dog and she spends a lot of time with the trainer on the field trial circuit. Ive began to see what a well trained pointing dog who has been put on a lot of wild birds can really do. Because of that, I want a dog who hauls arse and runs big. I don't care if I can see her, because I use a Garmin and I know exactly where she is at all times. If shes at 500 yards and still handling.. More power to her. More realisitic though when Im hunting her off foot is 200-300 yards. Shes a lot closer in heavy cover, and bigger in areas where you can see her for miles. A good dog will adjust accordingly and find birds. If my dog is finding a lot of birds she runs closer. But if she isn't, she gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger until she finds birds. Thats exactly what I want from a dog.......... Since shes going to be running in several Horse Back All Age championships field trials the next several months, I want her to run as big as possible. When guys say they want a hunting dog, and not a trial dog, it tells me they usually don't understand what a trial dog really is. I foot hunt my trial dog all the time. She understands the difference between running off foot for 4-5 hours and running off a horse for 1-1.5 hrs. Off foot, shes a 4-6 MPH dog on the GPS. She will cover anywhere from 15-25 miles in a hunt. Off a horse in a trial situation, you can easily double that 4-6 MPH speed because she doesn't pace herself to hunt all day.
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Jet, I couldn't agree with you more. Very well put.

blueweim said:
I have a question for you guys with big ranging pointers. When your pup points a bird at 500yards its going to take you a good 7-10 minutes to cover that 1/3 of a mile. Do most of the roosters hold for you that long? I am being serious in my question because my dog is still pretty young but even at 100yards out alot of the time the bird has moved on by the time I get there. My dog has a good nose and I have seen him point a birds from 20 yards so its not like he is crowding them but without the perfect wind a lot of times he points in the 10 yard range. I don't get out enough to not shoot a bird when the opportunity arises. My dog is steady to flush so even if one wild flushes on us he will mark where it goes down and either retrieve the shot bird or hunt and point the bird in it's new location (thats about the only time he really ranges out).

Personally I enjoy my dog being a little closer and being able to get on his points quickly.
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Blue brings up a good point. Pheasants will run (as we all know) and sometimes there will be a time when the bird is gone. This is where "how do we handle running pheasants" comes into play. There have been times when I've had a rooster stay put at 250 yards until I got there. It depends on the dog, the cover and the situation. If I feel the bird has run off, then I release the dog and then the game really begins. Can my dog handle the pheasant, who is literally running for his life? Sometimes we forget that this is a life and death situation for the birds... Which leads me to another point....
 
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Toad said:
Not trying to be a smart azz, but I want the dog to range as far as the closest bird... To go as fast and as wide as she can without over-running her nose and the cover. If I kick up birds on the way to where she is pointing or off running, then she is ranging too far.

You can't really put a set-in-stone number on that and say the dog's effective range should be X, but we can all tell when a dog isn't running big enough or when it is covering a lot of ground but not being thorough enough.

. Alternatively, I was really frustrated with her two years ago when she was pointing pheasants 100 yards ahead of me and I kicked up two myself on the way to her.


Most of my dog 'training' is on the job so I don't expect her to get everything right the first time. Fortunately I think I got a smart one, and she is figuring out when to hit the gas and when to slow things down... I think...
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This has been alluded to a couple of times.. Toad/Blue, do you guys shoot birds that your dogs don't point? Toad, those two birds, (assuming that they are roosters) that you walked up, on your way to your dog, did you shoot at them?
Shoot, that could be an entire new thread.
I personally don't shoot birds that aren't pointed. I don't shoot birds that the dogs flush. There are times when a young dog needs a bird shot for him/her and I will do that, but it's kinda rare. My enjoyment stems from the dogs, and watching them. The opener of chicken season, I didn't carry a gun. (Recovering from a dislocated shoulder, but that's a long story) Turns out, I had a chicken pointed at 330 yards that I coulda shot if I had a gun, but was just as excited about it all.

But back to the point, if they aren't pointed, do you still shoot? Of course, people hunt by different rules and such, and that's cool, it's interesting to see/hear different perspectives.

One more thing. They DO know the difference between trialing and hunting by the way. Which is a good AND a bad thing. :) :mad:

AND one more thing. Please don't take this as anything negative towards Blue or Toad. That's not the point, at all. Toad is close enough to someday get together and hunt together and I'd like to sometime. Just trying to get someone else's point of view.
 
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SetterNut said:
Ideal range to me is a matter of the level of trust you have in your dog, the terrain you are in and the type of bird you are hunting.

My dog is not as big a running dog as John's, but we hunt together a lot. All of the dogs can be trusted to stand their birds, back each other, and adjust their range to the cover. So why not let them cover as much ground as possible for you? That is what they are breed to do.

When the dogs are young and have not had a lot of wild bird exposure, you are going to have some mistakes, or learning opportunities. That one of the things that makes a good bird dog in the long run.

If your experienced dog is out 500 yards or more on quail, it doesn't matter much how long it takes you to get there, the birds will still be there. Birds like pheasants, you are going to have some of them that will be out of there before you get there. But the more birds your dog works the more likely the bird will be there when you arrive.

But not everyone lives in an area where they can put their dog into good numbers of wild bird often enough develop the bird handling skills to the level the dog will need to hold them at long range till you get there. I would think that it would be difficult if not impossible to develop that without wild birds. Pen raised / released birds just aren't as spooky and will let the dog get away with things that a wild bird will not.

But given a dog that is trustworthy on its birds, some people would still prefer to have the dog withing visual range much of the time. I fall into this category. I get more pleasure watching my dog work birds than I do shooting them now. But I have shot lots of birds, and it doesn't cost me $400 in gas and a weeks vacation to hunt birds.

Most of us consider the dogs part of the family. Once we have them they are with us for life. The dog is going to have a natural range.

You got to dance with the one that brung ya :cheers:
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Good post Steve! :)
 
V-john for me I will shoot a bird that wild flushes on us. I will not shoot a bird that the dog jumps in on but for example

Dog is working a running rooster by trying to track exactly where he is. Dog still has not located it but as I get closer the rooster flushes 30 yards out. Dead Bird. The dog is trained that he is steady to flush and as soon as he hears the flush he positions and stays steady until the gun is fired and then he is on his mark. We don't loose many birds he see's in the air. Excellent retriever and dead bird tracker.

But if he points a bird and does not hold the point I would not shoot that bird. That hasn't happened in a while but during his training that is how it worked.

Wild flush dead bird. I am not always able to hunt the perfect wind conditions and you have to expect that sometimes the bird will fly before the dog has locked down the position.

Maybe if I got out to hunt more I would not shoot those but I am lucky if I get out to kansas for 10 days a year.

Sounds like you have a great pup and I am sure mine could learn a thing or two. He does back;)
 
short and sweet

My dogs point, retrieve and 1 honors. My dogs never had to run more then 30 yards away, too many birds.(not bragging) just alot of birds. All hold points till I get there sometimes the birds move alttle and some move alot. There are days if I waited to shoot only pointed birds I would never shoot. I hunt my dogs... For me I have nothing to prove except a few pheasants at the end of the day. The season is short I hunt almost a month total during the season. If my dogs start sweeping big I am pretty sure someone has just left this field. A lot of times I hunt grass way to tall to let them run far and then I will hunt only 1 dog. I am getting tracking collars this fall. I never yell maybe whistle once in awhile but I vibrate them if I need them to do something else. Too many birds and way to much fun for me! Well maybe not this year the way it sounds now we will see how dogs really need to hunt. Have fun guys and hunt away!!!

And that's how I hunt

Lazlo:)
 
This has been a good thread with lots of good discussion, without the derogatory stuff that sometimes pops up when we are discussing range or style of hunting.

Over time I know that my preference in hunting style and the way I like to see my dog work has changed.

I suspect that those people that do not have the opportunity to hunt wild birds in good numbers very often, put a higher value on the bird getting in the bag, than I do now. I was that way before I moved here.

But when you can get your dogs into birds pretty frequently, and you can shoot enough birds to satisfy the table fair, how the dog handles the bird can become a more important issue to you.

For example, I enjoy Prairie Chicken hunting, and around here it can't be because of the large number that you shoot :rolleyes: We have been out a couple of time and are yet to take a shot. But watching the dog get out and hunt is pure joy, and it has little to do with birds in the bag..... for me.

But I do plan on shooting one of those dang Chickens just to get even :cheers:
 
V-John said:
AND one more thing. Please don't take this as anything negative towards Blue or Toad. That's not the point, at all. Toad is close enough to someday get together and hunt together and I'd like to sometime. Just trying to get someone else's point of view.
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No offense taken. I hope we go out and hunt together some day.

So.... I guess it all depends on the situation whether or not I shoot the unpointed bird. In most cases, which isn't very often, I have shot at birds the dog didn't point if I kicked them up myself. I realize that is a foul for most pointer owners, but I have only hunted behind a pointing dog for a couple years now. I had a golden retriever before that, as many of you know... And before that I was my own bird dog.:eek:

In the scenario I mentioned in the previous post where I kicked up two pheasants on the way to the dog... Those birds were both roosters and they were delicious.:D

I don't think I would ever shoot at a bird the dog flushed herself. But I don't really have a problem shooting unpointed birds that get up at my feet. That is when I am hunting by myself or with the small groups of guys that are hunting behind only my dog. Having the dog retrieve the bird is just as imortant, if not more important than the initial point. Personally, I get as much if not more joy (and definitely more pride) from a good retrieve than from seeing my dog point a bird.

With somebody else's dog, I follow their rules for their dog. Sometimes it's tough passing up shots when it is agreed that we are shooting 'points only', but I want to get invited back...:cool:
 
Also "+1" to pretty much everything blueweim said. (except I don't know for sure if my dog would back)... Guess I should have read that post before I answered.
 
Blue - I selfishly never thought of it someone who may not get to hunt very much... I can certainly understand your POV in shooting birds and such. Thanks for that enlightenment!

Another thing. I certainly don't want to sound like I was bragging on my dogs. I know the addage about bragging on dogs and such. They have faults, all three of them! (well, the fourth is a dog that I've fostered that I'm probably going to keep. He needs the bird work, but could be a nice little hunting dog) I'm the hardest on them, and can tell you their faults. I'd rather brag on other's dogs, like Setternut's Setter, Ace. He's coming along very nicely, and finds birds, and looks nice doing it. He loves birds, and does his job and does it well. He loves his dad too. :)
 
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