Purpose of Force-Fetch?

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IndianaRose

New member
Is the something that needs to be done for a dog that naturally fetches? I assume that this is to train a dog that doesn't naturally fetch--or am I missing something? The method looks nearly identical to a competition obedience fetch training.

My young Golden pup, almost 3 months, does a take/hold, and does a wonderful fetch and give, but the only thing I've needed to work on is a little refining what's already there--like a sit before give. So far it's just been tennis balls, but I seen no running around with it, chewing it up, or playing keep away.

My pheasant dummy just arrived yesterday, and I have yet to try him on that.

So, did I luck out or am I missing something in this training?
 
I think in general you have it right… I force fetch all my dogs because it sures up all the commands important to me… I have pointing dogs. The word force means a lot of different things to different people, to me it’s just taking pressure on and off.
 
IndianaRose said:
Is the something that needs to be done for a dog that naturally fetches? I assume that this is to train a dog that doesn't naturally fetch--or am I missing something? The method looks nearly identical to a competition obedience fetch training.

My young Golden pup, almost 3 months, does a take/hold, and does a wonderful fetch and give, but the only thing I've needed to work on is a little refining what's already there--like a sit before give. So far it's just been tennis balls, but I seen no running around with it, chewing it up, or playing keep away.

My pheasant dummy just arrived yesterday, and I have yet to try him on that.

So, did I luck out or am I missing something in this training?
Click to expand...
I force fetch after the first bird season
 
IndianaRose said:
Is the something that needs to be done for a dog that naturally fetches? I assume that this is to train a dog that doesn't naturally fetch--or am I missing something? The method looks nearly identical to a competition obedience fetch training.

My young Golden pup, almost 3 months, does a take/hold, and does a wonderful fetch and give, but the only thing I've needed to work on is a little refining what's already there--like a sit before give. So far it's just been tennis balls, but I seen no running around with it, chewing it up, or playing keep away.

My pheasant dummy just arrived yesterday, and I have yet to try him on that.

So, did I luck out or am I missing something in this training?
Click to expand...

Force fetch is an obedience like you said, it also cleans up the whole retrieving/holding process. Teaches to pick up anything on command, hold it, soft mouth, being calm with birds, and to not ever let a bird go once it has it.

Full FF is not needed for upland, but it does help in a lot of situations. 3mo is way too early to even consider it. During FF you break the dog down and build it back with a lot of situations that only a maturing brain can comprehend. 7-9mo is the key time almost every retriever trainer will suggest. I did it at 8-9mo. At 3mo you will ruin your dog 100%.

Just think, hows that puppy going to react to you shoving a gloved hand into its mouth and holding its muzzle while it's tied to a fence post? That's only step 1. Its going to freak out and never trust your hand again. What about starting to put pressure on ears/paws when doing the same? Going to freak out and never trust you again. Pinching its ear while putting a log/pvc pipe in its mouth while tied to that post? Never going to trust a stick again. See the pattern? Dog needs to be mature for this. I probably sound harsh but its so important that you do not do anything like this at your pups age that I really want to drive this point home.

Your 3mo is so far from being done, i really mean no offense but what it does with a tennis ball at this age doesn't really mean anything in the field. Ive seen tons of dogs that will fetch a ball for 12 hours straight but wont touch a bird, or just tears a bird to pieces on the ground. You are still 3 months from working it in hunting situations with gunfire and real birds, that's when you start to understand where the dog is retrieving wise. At 3mo its just playing the way it thinks you want to play, has no concept of work (hunting) or real retrieving. Keep playing with the dog and teaching basic obedience every day (recall, sit, stay, give, starting on heel etc). Worry about the real bird work/fetching in a few months. You are at a peak point where you are building bonds and trust with this dog, dont get too serious with him/her.
 
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KEOutdoors said:
Force fetch is an obedience like you said, it also cleans up the whole retrieving/holding process. Teaches to pick up anything on command, hold it, soft mouth, being calm with birds, and to not ever let a bird go once it has it.

Full FF is not needed for upland, but it does help in a lot of situations. 3mo is way too early to even consider it. During FF you break the dog down and build it back with a lot of situations that only a maturing brain can comprehend. 7-9mo is the key time almost every retriever trainer will suggest. I did it at 8-9mo. At 3mo you will ruin your dog 100%.

Just think, hows that puppy going to react to you shoving a gloved hand into its mouth and holding its muzzle while it's tied to a fence post? That's only step 1. Its going to freak out and never trust your hand again. What about starting to put pressure on ears/paws when doing the same? Going to freak out and never trust you again. Pinching its ear while putting a log/pvc pipe in its mouth while tied to that post? Never going to trust a stick again. See the pattern? Dog needs to be mature for this. I probably sound harsh but its so important that you do not do anything like this at your pups age that I really want to drive this point home.

Your 3mo is so far from being done, i really mean no offense but what it does with a tennis ball at this age doesn't really mean anything in the field. Ive seen tons of dogs that will fetch a ball for 12 hours straight but wont touch a bird, or just tears a bird to pieces on the ground. You are still 3 months from working it in hunting situations with gunfire and real birds, that's when you start to understand where the dog is retrieving wise. At 3mo its just playing the way it thinks you want to play, has no concept of work (hunting) or real retrieving. Keep playing with the dog and teaching basic obedience every day (recall, sit, stay, give, starting on heel etc). Worry about the real bird work/fetching in a few months. You are at a peak point where you are building bonds and trust with this dog, dont get too serious with him/her.
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This is 100% spot on!
 
I agree with what has been said. Right now it is fun, eventually they will test you. FF is all about obedience. They want to pick up the ball. Teach them to fetch anything on command is obedience. Why is it important? When you shoot a bird across a creek that you cannot cross yourself FF will allow you to send a dog on a retrieve, get that dog to pick up the bird, and deliver to hand, not drop in the creek! Wait until the dog is at least 8 months old but then learn from someone experienced and learn with your pup! Good luck.
 
HaHa! Of all things... my pup just brought me a bird this evening! Not from training, but from under the shrubs at our house. Apparently a sparrow had hit the picture window and killed itself, falling into the landscaping. Yeager crawled in there and brought me (yuck!) a 2/3 day dead, maggoty bird. Thank you, pup! (I guess!) Lot's of praise on the spot and lots of hand washing when I got indoors!
 
KEOutdoors said:
Force fetch is an obedience like you said, it also cleans up the whole retrieving/holding process. Teaches to pick up anything on command, hold it, soft mouth, being calm with birds, and to not ever let a bird go once it has it.
Click to expand...
I have done something similar before. I helped a friend train a service dog for a wheelchair-bound person. The dog needed to pick up and bring pencils, napkins, or nearly any dropped item and hand it to the owner. He also needed to fetch water bottles, kleenex boxes, and other common items without mangling them. One of my favorite training jobs!
 
Month 4 doing multiple marks, month 5 hand signals, and month 6 running blinds. If it were only that easy. Always entertaining on the forums. A pheasant dummy on a 3 month old pup??????? Stick to a paint roller once or twice a week.
 
No, Rose, you're not missing anything. My opinion is that most retrievers do not need it. I used to force train all my dogs, now I don't do it unless I start losing a lot of birds. If a dog hunts dead and picks up the bird I don't mind walking over and picking it up. Having said that, I have lost a few birds since I stopped. Usually, it's when the dog finds the bird in heavy cover, and I don't see it happen. Often a dog will not go back and find it again. A force trained dog is much more reliable and There's a bit of a wow factor also.
 
westksbowhunter said:
Month 4 doing multiple marks, month 5 hand signals, and month 6 running blinds. If it were only that easy. Always entertaining on the forums. A pheasant dummy on a 3 month old pup??????? Stick to a paint roller once or twice a week.
Click to expand...

My retriever was retrieving dead pigeons at 3mo and finding them in tall grass, and i "worked" (played) with him every single day from the day i got him at 7wks. A paint roller once a week is a missing out on a whole lot of good fetching and bonding time with your pup. Dont be lazy, dogs are work.. do the work and start it early.. dont be one of those "dont even start training until 1-2yo" guys.

Nothing super serious should be happening at 3mo bird training wise, but should be "working" that dog once or twice a day for as long as the attention span will allow with basic fetchs, sitting, giving to hand, etc. with soft canvas puppy bumpers or foam pheasant if he is big enough to handle it. No hard objects until the adult teeth are in.
 
KEOutdoors said:
My retriever was retrieving dead pigeons at 3mo and finding them in tall grass, and i "worked" (played) with him every single day from the day i got him at 7wks. A paint roller once a week is a missing out on a whole lot of good fetching and bonding time with your pup. Dont be lazy, dogs are work.. do the work and start it early.. dont be one of those "dont even start training until 1-2yo" guys.

Nothing super serious should be happening at 3mo bird training wise, but should be "working" that dog once or twice a day for as long as the attention span will allow with basic fetchs, sitting, giving to hand, etc. with soft canvas puppy bumpers or foam pheasant if he is big enough to handle it. No hard objects until the adult teeth are in.
Click to expand...
I introduce a litter to a clipped wing pigeon around 6 to 7 weeks. If I buy a pup they are introduced at 8 weeks when I bring them home. They get birds at least once a week up til force fetch. They are retrieving dead pigeons long before 3 months.
 
You are right Dude, a forced trained dog is much more reliable. I have seen labs that did not like to retrieve, labs that didn’t like water and labs that didn’t enjoy eating everything in front of them. Genetics and more genetics. Sorry goose but your bell curve is rather restricted. Your dog will learn something every day, make it constructive. Birds and more birds.
 
Wind River said:
You are right Dude, a forced trained dog is much more reliable. I have seen labs that did not like to retrieve, labs that didn’t like water and labs that didn’t enjoy eating everything in front of them. Genetics and more genetics. Sorry goose but your bell curve is rather restricted. Your dog will learn something every day, make it constructive. Birds and more birds.
Click to expand...
I have never seen a lab that didn't retrieve. Pointers,setters,springers,I have seen them not retrieve.
 
A bit of history:
Just as the blind retrieve concept was borrowed from herding dog trainers (Dave Elliot), retriever trainers borrowed force-breaking from pointing dog trainers. Back in the 1880s, pointing dog trainer David Sanborn developed force-breaking to teach elementary retrieving to pointers that had little or no natural retrieving instinct.

For many decades, retriever trainers did not force-break. For example, as late as 1949, James Lamb Free, in his classic, Training Your Retriever, all but foamed at the mouth at the very thought of force-breaking a retriever. (He did, however, recommend teaching retrievers to hold on command, apparently unaware that this is the first step in force-breaking.) However, gradually force-breaking became popular among many retriever trainers. The 1968 classic Charles Morgan on Retrievers recommends force-breaking every retriever. The procedure also was name a variety of terms including "trained retrieve", "force fetch", etc.

My perspective on the "purpose of force-fetch":
Primarily to have a tool to deal with mouth issues.
For example, a dog starts chomping birds, how would you address this?
Or a dog starts dropping birds after swimming to shake after exiting a water body,
how would you address this?
With a dog that has been properly force-fetched, there is a tool in the handler's toolbox to address such mouth issues.

Secondarily it teaches a young dog to respond quickly to avoid pressure and also enforces the concept that
the dog must fetch when commanded, not simply when the dog wants to.
 
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