Puppy Research - Identifying Litters w/ Bloodlines

[Mosby]

Was looking for a (less manual) way to research litters based on specific dogs in the bloodline.

I wish. In the Vizsla world the best breeders have 2 year waiting lists, don't advertise litters and in some cases won't admit they are having one if they don't know you. Especially in the field trial world. A lot of the top people are friends. When they do have a "special" breeding, it seems that the pups stay within their community and you find out about it when they post going home pics.

Regardless, it has always been a manual process for me. When I got my last pup, I knew what bloodline I wanted and got a pup out of one of his daughters but that took several phone calls, emails and a 2 year wait for the right pairing. If you find what you are looking for, do not undersell the importance of the mom in the litter. I was once too focused on the stud and I'm sitting next to a daughter of a NFC and HOF dog who couldn't find a bird in her food bowl. I've become convinced(after learning the hard way) that pups get as much or more from the mom than the stud and focusing on both sides of the pedigree is time well spent. Good luck on your search and hope you find exactly what you're looking for.

 

[LC Smith]

I wish. In the Vizsla world the best breeders have 2 year waiting lists, don't advertise litters and in some cases won't admit they are having one if they don't know you. Especially in the field trial world. A lot of the top people are friends. When they do have a "special" breeding, it seems that the pups stay within their community and you find out about it when they post going home pics.

Regardless, it has always been a manual process for me. When I got my last pup, I knew what bloodline I wanted and got a pup out of one of his daughters but that took several phone calls, emails and a 2 year wait for the right pairing. If you find what you are looking for, do not undersell the importance of the mom in the litter. I was once too focused on the stud and I'm sitting next to a daughter of a NFC and HOF dog who couldn't find a bird in her food bowl. I've become convinced(after learning the hard way) that pups get as much or more from the mom than the stud and focusing on both sides of the pedigree is time well spent. Good luck on your search and hope you find exactly what you're looking for.

You bring up a good idea about just reaching out to breeders with the questions. I know that before I got my Lab, I spent a fair bit of time, almost two years, talking and researching. Once I got in touch with a breeder that I had a good connection with, he was able to work with me on what my expectations were, hunting style, etc. and suggested a couple of pairings. I am so glad I got a pup from the pair I did.

 

[LCR10A]

LC-where did you get your lab? I’ve had multiple labs over the last 20+ years. Always interested in hearing about good labs!

 

[goldenboy]

Check this location out. He is developing just what you are looking for. https://prolitter.com/

 

[LC Smith]

LC-where did you get your lab? I’ve had multiple labs over the last 20+ years. Always interested in hearing about good labs!

Thanks for asking. He is from Hunters Point Kennel in Marshalltown, IA. He is out of Capone x Georgia.

This was the write-up on the litter and it is spot-on for my Whisky. He is sitting at 72lbs right now and he will drop a few LBS before hunting season starts.:

4XGMPR Capone SH -X- CPR Georgia — Yellow (Red) Pointing Lab Puppies

The puppies in this litter are all yellow — leaning toward the fox red phase of the color. Time will tell how dark yellow or “red” they get. Fox Red Pointing Lab Puppies seem to be more and more popular every year and this year is no exception. I fully expect that these dogs will not be available for long.

There is no doubt in my mind that Georgia and Capones pups will be go-getters. As they mature and develop I would anticipate dogs that hunt like their hair is on fire demonstrating a level of drive that is through the roof. I anticipate that the dogs will be able to take some collar — but that you should not NEED to use it. If they are like their Sire and Dam, once they learn to play the game — you should be good to go. The linage in this litter is unique simply due to the fact that it is a combination of highly titled APLA and AKC dogs as well some blue-collar hunting dogs that also double as foot warmers at night by the fire.

Soooo what will the litter be suited for? Upland work and hunt tests will be fine. I would say that they will be fast enough for some run and gun stuff. Small water work — as I don’t think the females especially will be huge — ponds, marshes, puddles and all field waterfowl hunting one should be just fine. The only area I would say would be a challenge would be big water — the open Mississippi, or Lake Erie, for example — just because the dogs are not going to be overly large. Anticipate males from 65-80 lbs; females in the 55-65 lbs range.

Capone - https://www.pointing-lab.com/capone/
Georgia - https://www.pointing-lab.com/project-cpr-hpks-georgia-on-my-mind-georgia/

 

[Mosby]

You bring up a good idea about just reaching out to breeders with the questions. I know that before I got my Lab, I spent a fair bit of time, almost two years, talking and researching. Once I got in touch with a breeder that I had a good connection with, he was able to work with me on what my expectations were, hunting style, etc. and suggested a couple of pairings. I am so glad I got a pup from the pair I did.

Breeders often know who is having litters and really know the dogs both the good and the bad. They talk a lot and they compete against them. They can be a good resource......if you're looking for a pup and they like you. They like people involved with the breed too, so I got involved in a Vizsla club, volunteered for rescues, etc., I called a breeder in Georgia once and left a voicemail. She didn't know me, so she called a breeder in Florida who I mentioned I had previously gotten a pup from, before she called me back. It can be a very tight knit group and one bad word and you're sort of screwed but if you have a good reputation, it can open doors. I don't have labs anymore but I would assume it can work the same with other breeds.

 

[LC Smith]

Breeders often know who is having litters and really know the dogs both the good and the bad. They talk a lot and they compete against them. They can be a good resource......if you're looking for a pup and they like you. They like people involved with the breed too, so I got involved in a Vizsla club, volunteered for rescues, etc., I called a breeder in Georgia once and left a voicemail. She didn't know me, so she called a breeder in Florida who I mentioned I had previously gotten a pup from, before she called me back. It can be a very tight knit group and one bad word and you're sort of screwed but if you have a good reputation, it can open doors. I don't have labs anymore but I would assume it can work the same with other breeds.

You are so right. I learned so much by joining my local AKC club and the APLA, as well as running hunt tests. This is where I met a lot of the breeders and trainers and got to know their styles and dogs. There are some amazing dogs out there.

 

[Munster927]

I was once too focused on the stud and I'm sitting next to a daughter of a NFC and HOF dog who couldn't find a bird in her food bowl. I've become convinced(after learning the hard way) that pups get as much or more from the mom than the stud and focusing on both sides of the pedigree is time well spent.

I think this gets people tripped up a lot really. Especially when looking in past generations. I don't want to say that it doesn't matter, but if a pairing has 2 outstanding grandparents that are carrying the water in a current litter pairing, meaning mom and dad aren't that outstanding but Grandma and Grandpa were world class, the amount of genetics that become diluted down the line is pretty incredible.

It's why I focus on the current parents obviously and then Grandma and Grandpa a bit but from both sides. Anything beyond that is so diluted it really doesn't matter. There's chances a gene is passed but it's miniscule. I'm new to breeding Small Munsterlanders but I get a lot of guidance from some old hand breeders that are heavily into DNA and genetic comparisons. There's definitely a lot of info available but you need to know how to use it and what it means.

 

[Woollybob]

10-4... I wasn't going to go down the road of suggesting a specific breeder, etc. (I do have a few if interested LOL) I was looking at it from the specific dog you pointed out. His lineage does not have any of the "main" or big name pointing lab stock such as Rooster Smasher, Cajun of Black Forest, Black Forest's Bear Grits, or Wannamaker's Hot Tub. These were just a few off the top of my head. What is the draw to the dog you identified? I love to hear about different lines and their traits. Thanks for sharing your post and thoughts.

Fair question. I hesitate to answer as I do not want the thread to turn to 'here are some dogs that do all that', but here goes: It goes back to what I value more in a dog for my situation and me wanting to follow my own experiences vs 'the talk of the training and hunting clubs' (despite that being well qualified opinion). I have no interest in field trials or titles for my next dog. I don't care how broad their chest is, blocky head, or other looks. My hunts are not timed. I want meat in the freezer and to have an enjoyable pursuit of said flying meat. Hunt wild birds exclusively and not just when the weather is nice. Also need a dog that thrives at being a well behaved family house dog and fishing partner the other 8 months of the year. Close, methodical hunter, easily trained, love of birds, physically robust, etc., but with a rock solid off switch.

I'm sure there are thousands of other dogs out there that have done this wonderfully, but I have first-hand experience with a dog that nailed all of what I wanted and that is what I want to match as closely as I can (genetically) this time around. The only other dog I have experienced with this balance was his half-brother (same sire, shown above). Again, this is within the bounds of the few dozen dogs I have spent time with and what I personally value in a dog. There are others with similar testimony online regarding this dog and his offspring, but of course everyone loves their dog.

At the end of the day, there could have been zero titles on this stud or any in his line. There were certainly no titles on the dam. My personal experience with his offspring vs dozens of others makes me want more. Not trying to sell the virtues of this dog to anyone else - Personal choice. Having said all that I would consider Raider lines a main/big name in the pointing lab world. Cashman's is still selling frozen of Trooper many years later so they seem to think his genetics are worth continuing.

I have another dog with several of the big names on your list among others. That was my approach last time: Find the pedigree with the highest weighting of all the titles and big names. See my earlier comments above about unguided missile, etc. It did not turn out well in terms of what I was looking for. Incredibly athletic dog and I'm sure he could have had all the titles by his name with a good trainer putting in lots of hours of drilling, but that is not what I am looking for. And I hunt with a lot of different people, also with big name breeders, trainers, and pedigrees and get to see how they perform in the field and at home for comparison.

But this is not to argue the virtues of or disparage any dog, line, or breeder vs another. My point of starting the thread was how anyone might go about putting in a dog or dogs and finding how strongly a litter matches (for whatever motivation they may have). In my case it is not for the pursuit of titling ability, but closeness genetically (and hopefully in turn performance and behaviorally) to a few key dogs (one in particular). Surely I am not the only one on here that thinks to himself 'dang, wish I had another one like that...'

Thanks everyone for the good input and discussion.

 

[LC Smith]

I think this gets people tripped up a lot really. Especially when looking in past generations. I don't want to say that it doesn't matter, but if a pairing has 2 outstanding grandparents that are carrying the water in a current litter pairing, meaning mom and dad aren't that outstanding but Grandma and Grandpa were world class, the amount of genetics that become diluted down the line is pretty incredible.

It's why I focus on the current parents obviously and then Grandma and Grandpa a bit but from both sides. Anything beyond that is so diluted it really doesn't matter. There's chances a gene is passed but it's miniscule. I'm new to breeding Small Munsterlanders but I get a lot of guidance from some old hand breeders that are heavily into DNA and genetic comparisons. There's definitely a lot of info available but you need to know how to use it and what it means.

Munster,

The dilution piece is interesting. In my very minimal understanding of genetics, etc. I can 'tell' if a particular dog is in the Yellow Pointing Lab line by the looks. When I look at my pup and his brother, and then look at his dad and grandfather, they are spitting images of each other. It is scary how closely they look to each other. I was at a hunt test when Whisky was about a year and a half, and there was another Yellow Lab and they could have been brothers. When talking to the owner about the line, we found out they shared the same grandfather, Rooster Smasher. You could see it right away. It was the coolest thing.

 

[LC Smith]

Fair question. I hesitate to answer as I do not want the thread to turn to 'here are some dogs that do all that', but here goes: It goes back to what I value more in a dog for my situation and me wanting to follow my own experiences vs 'the talk of the training and hunting clubs' (despite that being well qualified opinion). I have no interest in field trials or titles for my next dog. I don't care how broad their chest is, blocky head, or other looks. My hunts are not timed. I want meat in the freezer and to have an enjoyable pursuit of said flying meat. Hunt wild birds exclusively and not just when the weather is nice. Also need a dog that thrives at being a well behaved family house dog and fishing partner the other 8 months of the year. Close, methodical hunter, easily trained, love of birds, physically robust, etc., but with a rock solid off switch.

I'm sure there are thousands of other dogs out there that have done this wonderfully, but I have first-hand experience with a dog that nailed all of what I wanted and that is what I want to match as closely as I can (genetically) this time around. The only other dog I have experienced with this balance was his half-brother (same sire, shown above). Again, this is within the bounds of the few dozen dogs I have spent time with and what I personally value in a dog. There are others with similar testimony online regarding this dog and his offspring, but of course everyone loves their dog.

At the end of the day, there could have been zero titles on this stud or any in his line. There were certainly no titles on the dam. My personal experience with his offspring vs dozens of others makes me want more. Not trying to sell the virtues of this dog to anyone else - Personal choice. Having said all that I would consider Raider lines a main/big name in the pointing lab world. Cashman's is still selling frozen of Trooper many years later so they seem to think his genetics are worth continuing.

I have another dog with several of the big names on your list among others. That was my approach last time: Find the pedigree with the highest weighting of all the titles and big names. See my earlier comments above about unguided missile, etc. It did not turn out well in terms of what I was looking for. Incredibly athletic dog and I'm sure he could have had all the titles by his name with a good trainer putting in lots of hours of drilling, but that is not what I am looking for. And I hunt with a lot of different people, also with big name breeders, trainers, and pedigrees and get to see how they perform in the field and at home for comparison.

But this is not to argue the virtues of or disparage any dog, line, or breeder vs another. My point of starting the thread was how anyone might go about putting in a dog or dogs and finding how strongly a litter matches (for whatever motivation they may have). In my case it is not for the pursuit of titling ability, but closeness genetically (and hopefully in turn performance and behaviorally) to a few key dogs (one in particular). Surely I am not the only one on here that thinks to himself 'dang, wish I had another one like that...'

Thanks everyone for the good input and discussion.

I love the answer and can absolutely appreciate the position. I really do hope you can find the one you are looking for. There is nothing like having a great dog. I am glad I got to dig a bit more into this dog to learn more and expand my knowledge on Labs. There are so many great dogs out there right now. I have been very blessed to have found the one I have. He is really well rounded and has a great off-switch. I wanted a really good pointing lab mainly because I got tired of hunting with others and not being able to recover cripples with their dogs. This little dude hunts like a mad-man during the season and then is on the boat in the summer! Keep us posted!!!

 

[Munster927]

Munster,

The dilution piece is interesting. In my very minimal understanding of genetics, etc. I can 'tell' if a particular dog is in the Yellow Pointing Lab line by the looks. When I look at my pup and his brother, and then look at his dad and grandfather, they are spitting images of each other. It is scary how closely they look to each other. I was at a hunt test when Whisky was about a year and a half, and there was another Yellow Lab and they could have been brothers. When talking to the owner about the line, we found out they shared the same grandfather, Rooster Smasher. You could see it right away. It was the coolest thing.

Yeah in discussing genetics with other breeders that are very involved in it and from my own research, the "looks" are very easy to identify and predict. Each quality for a look is tied to a gene, and if mom and dad have a gene for a blocky head for example, they can know looking back and from a genetic test that yes they'll have the block head or no they won't. Similar to how in humans if mom has brown eyes and Dad had brown eyes, there's something like an 80% chance their child will have brown eyes. There's also dominant and recessive genes for everything too. It can get complicated quick haha

But from what the breeders I work with have said regarding dilution of genetics is more so tied to hunting traits. There's no gene (at least identified) that's tied to a dog having a long or strong nose for game, or a higher desire to retrieve, etc.

So it gets harder to identify, and when you can't identify the genes the chances for dilution related to those characteristics are there. If grandma and grandpa on the Dams side had phenomenal noses and desire to retrieve, by the time the genes mix down the line to a new pairings puppy, the odds for dilution are greater if Dam and Sire weren't also phenomenal with their nose, desire, etc.

 

[Weimdogman]

There is a lot to be said for temperament in the genetic code. There are good reasons for the highly controlled breeding /raising of Malinois and Shepards for police work.

One must always realize that in most breeding the undesirable can and often does show up in a litter.

 

[Mosby]

There have been some great dogs that were bred a lot, that never produced anything close to what they were. While other good dogs consistently produce good or sometimes great dogs. It's funny how genetics works.

 

[Munster927]

There is a lot to be said for temperament in the genetic code. There are good reasons for the highly controlled breeding /raising of Malinois and Shepards for police work.

One must always realize that in most breeding the undesirable can and often does show up in a litter.

Agreed. I think temperament is an often overlooked aspect in dog breeding. Everyone focuses on the health/hunting traits which are absolutely important, but a well tempered dog is something everyone desires.

I can't speak for everyone, but for myself I'd rather have an average to above average hunting dog with the best temperament versus the absolute best hunting dog that makes for an ill tempered dog around the house, people and other dogs. Most folks hunting dogs are just dogs and companions for 300 days a year.