Pointing concerns

[jmnhunter]

HI guys, I have a 3 year old Pudelpointer, first versatile dog I've owned. I was very impressed with her first 2 years hunting pheasants and how she would hold her point naturally. I was involved with NAVDHA the first year so we worked on various drills, the 2nd year she was just natural to it.

This pheasant season has been frustrating with her, albeit I've only been out 4-5 times, so perhaps shes still knocking the rust off. She'll get birdy on some fresh scent, do some half assed points until she figures out where the bird is, creep alittle closer, hold point, gets antsy, and creeps in closer until she pushes the bird for flush.
This has happened mostly on hens, but last weekend she did ran down a running rooster where she pointed for a few seconds and then she pushed them, we never shot. I became frustrated with her performance and I'm also trying to get my son his first shots at a pheasant. I threw my hands up in the air and said, "well, I guess shes turning into a flusher" On those birds, to help correct her, I did bring her back to where she first scented them, tell her to "whoa" while I walk up front, in which she holds until I release.

Not sure if its the dry conditions, need more bird contact, etc or I need to start over with a check cord like shes 8 months old.

As far as grouse goes, thats a whole different ball game, I've been told from others that they just need a lot of wild bird contact to get used to grouse. I can only think of one time when she pointed at a grouse, otherwise she creeps in too close.

 

[Labradinger]

It finally rained some here, so we’ll see if this changed anything. Ive been out a few times and Ive noticed his year that these birds are not sitting for my shorthair. The one difference is it’s been drier than Ive ever hunted in. Shes young, but I dont consider her moving with the bird and it finally flies “bumping” it. If a bird is moving, I want my dog moving with them. I think it also could be really hard for them to scent so far this year due to the conditions. We
Years ago, a buddy had a pointer that held point for a really long time. The shorthair I had at the time would move slowly in front of him and follow the bird.

 

[carptom1]

HI guys, I have a 3 year old Pudelpointer, first versatile dog I've owned. I was very impressed with her first 2 years hunting pheasants and how she would hold her point naturally. I was involved with NAVDHA the first year so we worked on various drills, the 2nd year she was just natural to it.

This pheasant season has been frustrating with her, albeit I've only been out 4-5 times, so perhaps shes still knocking the rust off. She'll get birdy on some fresh scent, do some half assed points until she figures out where the bird is, creep alittle closer, hold point, gets antsy, and creeps in closer until she pushes the bird for flush.
This has happened mostly on hens, but last weekend she did ran down a running rooster where she pointed for a few seconds and then she pushed them, we never shot. I became frustrated with her performance and I'm also trying to get my son his first shots at a pheasant. I threw my hands up in the air and said, "well, I guess shes turning into a flusher" On those birds, to help correct her, I did bring her back to where she first scented them, tell her to "whoa" while I walk up front, in which she holds until I release.

Not sure if its the dry conditions, need more bird contact, etc or I need to start over with a check cord like shes 8 months old.

As far as grouse goes, thats a whole different ball game, I've been told from others that they just need a lot of wild bird contact to get used to grouse. I can only think of one time when she pointed at a grouse, otherwise she creeps in too close.

It’s the dry conditions for sure. I had a similar experience with my Pudelpointer who is a little younger than yours. Last year she was solid and holding points and I was very happy overall. Last Monday it was 80 degrees and dusty. She did point and hold a few hens, but the roosters were impossible for her to pin down so she pushed several of them too hard and I was getting frustrated with her. Tuesday it rained and everything was different, in fact the rest of the week was more in line with what i expected this year. Dusty warm conditions are not ideal.

 

[mutthunt]

A couple things...

1) Like Labradinger said, it's been real tough scenting this year. My DD and PP are both veterans on wild birds and trained to the highest levels in NAVHDA, and they have been struggling. Especially on downded birds....it's probably the worst I've seen years.

2) Stopping after one year of training is not a good idea. IMHO it takes about 2-3 years of consistent training to get a finished pointer. Maybe think about training for UT.

 

[Drew]

I might get beat up by folks who are more interested in a beautiful point from a dog until you walk up and flush the bird yourself. However, from my perspective, while hunting a dog should only be expected to stay on point until that bird moves. During dry conditions birds just don’t hold very well. Additionally, in places where birds have been hunted a time or two tend to be a little more wary when a dogs around.

I wouldn’t sweat it. What I would recommend is reacting to what your seeing from you dog more quickly. I have a griffon and when she gets birdy, I get my gun in a more ready position and move up more closely to my dog. I also try to place myself in a good shooting lane based on where I think the bird is likely to fly.

In short, I believe environmental conditions dictate bird behavior and a dogs ability to pick up scent and hold a bird.

 

[jmnhunter]

A couple things...

1) Like Labradinger said, it's been real tough scenting this year. My DD and PP are both veterans on wild birds and trained to the highest levels in NAVHDA, and they have been struggling. Especially on downded birds....it's probably the worst I've seen years.

2) Stopping after one year of training is not a good idea. IMHO it takes about 2-3 years of consistent training to get a finished pointer. Maybe think about training for UT.

Thanks guys, that’s encouraging to hear.

Mutthunt - too be honest, the NAVDHA NA training put a bad taste in my mouth, I wasn’t impressed. I learned training with chukars is a bad idea for a young pup when they only fly 40-50 yards- caused a chasing issue for a bit- fixed with some additional training(not as bad as my lab when he was younger- he would chase 100’s of yards!)

We certainly train throughout the summer, but more with steadiness, retrieving, and foundations

 

[carptom1]

I might get beat up by folks who are more interested in a beautiful point from a dog until you walk up and flush the bird yourself. However, from my perspective, while hunting a dog should only be expected to stay on point until that bird moves. During dry conditions birds just don’t hold very well. Additionally, in places where birds have been hunted a time or two tend to be a little more wary when a dogs around.

I wouldn’t sweat it. What I would recommend is reacting to what your seeing from you dog more quickly. I have a griffon and when she gets birdy, I get my gun in a more ready position and move up more closely to my dog. I also try to place myself in a good shooting lane based on where I think the bird is likely to fly.

In short, I believe environmental conditions dictate bird behavior and a dogs ability to pick up scent and hold a bird.

This is very true. If the birds are under pressure and it’s dry and dusty, I really have to temper my expectations. Last week I was walking a public area when she locked up on a rooster in a fence line. She held point until I walked up on her. He really had no choice as there was no where to run. The fact that she held point until I got there tells me she is on the right path at 2.5 years old. We had many in heavier cover that did not. I credit most of that to the conditions. She has an excellent nose but under those conditions she was getting too close before she picked them up.

 

[Limitless]

I would echo what others have said about the dry conditions this year. The birds, both roosters and hens, are moving and running much more than a normal year. We can only guess at what the dogs are experiencing, but I am thinking, *if* a bird is sitting tight and if your dog normally gives it enough distance, then it could be that the scent is lighter in the dry cover and she is simply thinking it is further away, or is thinking it is moving, because of the lighter scent. Maybe also not getting directly downwind of it could exacerbate the above situation.

Alternatively, if it is a case where the birds are moving, then her moving to keep up with the bird, but not being able to judge distance could also prompt a flush. I don't compete in trials, but as previously mentioned, I wouldn't consider that bumping the bird, necessarily. Or maybe the other way to say that is I don't consider it a big negative. I guess if she is getting 100 yards in front of you and doing it before you can get there, then that's a challenge. If she waits until you are closer before she starts to creep, then it might just be a matter of getting closer to her faster when she is doing that -- sometimes easier said than done, of course.

It is simply a tougher year to get a young hunter the textbook shots from a point and walk up flush. Should get better as the season progresses, and much better when we get some snow on the ground.

It is probably up to each individual dog, but if the dog has a desire to work as a team, more of these encounters might make her adjust to being a little more cautious, just like a younger dog learning in a normal year that isn't so dry. More bird contacts, as you said, in these unique conditions.

This is subjective, but like @Drew mentioned, I like the fact that my dog stalks birds that have moved from a stationary spot, or are currently moving in front of us. Personally, it is one of the most fulfilling things I have experienced when hunting. From that standpoint, I am getting a ton of fulfillment this year!

In addition to the dry conditions, and depending on where you are hunting, if there aren't a lot of first year birds, then we are also hunting the smart, survivalist types. That's the pinnacle of challenge in this game -- wiley, old, pressured roosters, on bone dry public land.

We are finding more situations this year where the birds have either moved on before she started to stalk them or they simply moved faster than her and escaped. However, although Honey is very staunch on a stationary bird, and she is also good about waiting for me before stalking a bird she feels is closer, but is moving/has moved, she doesn't put up with runners. If she senses a bird is running (sees it, hears it, or what I suspect is happening this year, the scent suddenly gets lighter), she will chase them down. Sometimes she'll catch up to them fast and still within range. Sometimes not. But I figure if the bird is running out of range like that, we aren't going to get them with a slow stalk anyway. It has provided some fun situations this year where she takes off, I try to keep up as best I can, and have made some lucky long shots when the bird does flush. It certainly isn't boring.

In one memorable situation this year, she pointed, stalked, ran, pointed, stalked, ran, pointed, stalked, ran, pointed, stalked, flush, with me getting the 3rd year bird from less than 10 yards. I measured it on the app to 330 yards from start to finish. I couldn't keep running as fast after the first sprint, but was lucky the bird was stopping for a break every 100 yards too, making Honey resume her cycle back at the point stage.

Out of curiosity, where abouts are you hunting, @jmnhunter ?