Picking the Right One - Trust What or Who?

Steve, welcome back. I'm telling Ya.:) Get a healthy Lab pup, back yard breeder or not. Get the pup young, Use a shed antler for him/her as a toy and fun, lots of hugs and praise, treats what ever.
This is not Science! This should not be complicated:confused:
You don't need to spend a ton of money, A fair price for sure. And for sure Your pup does NOT have to be pre trained.
Your Lab WILL hunt shed antlers for You. Trust me. :thumbsup:
 
Steve Mikkelson said:
Attentively, I'm reading every response, and have made a handful of phone calls to the leads that have been presented. Thank you and please keep them coming as it has been very helpful.

I now have a good understanding of the titles and the associated trials, the health clearance language, and what is driving the price of the pups. Some are pricing their dogs based on the market, but some are also basing the price on health, performance of the sire and dam and pedigree. Very few can justify their price, and they are riding the coat tails of more conscious breeders. Some of the $1,000+ pups are extremely over priced relative to the accomplishments of the parents and certifications of slightly higher priced pups.

I want a healthly dog that comes for a lineage that has proven to possess the chacteristics necessary to be a ten year plus intelligent family dog and a shed hunter. Field trialing and hunt test is a important consideration, but not absolutely necessary.
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Steve, I do raise quality Golden's but the key to quality in labs and golden's is the lineage, but also the health clearances. You cannot get those clearances until a dog is 2 years old OFA hips, elbows, heart, and eyes! Any good money spent on a dog should come with a 2 year minimum against genetic defects. I have an older gentleman who has 2 of my pups. He feels because of good breeding you can close your eyes, reach in and pull out a pup, and get what you need. He also has trained dogs longer than I have been alive and I am pushing that half century mark! You are doing your homework and you should come up with a great dog
 
if i were going to buy another labrador , i would probably look hard at the british strains,mostly because i like their body shape and compactness.i'm not a fan of overly large dogs. i keep thinking that many american strains(not just the labs) are "overbred". this may draw fire,but im not trying to offend any body else's dogs or handlers.
also, prices have went steadily up for puppies.any dog represents 12- 14 yrs investment.what's 1200 dollars pro-rated over 13 yrs,not much.
good luck
 
Im also a fan of the more compact brittish labs. you should never buy a dog based on its color or looks but a blocky, well built lab is a beautiful thing. If i were to buy another lab it would prob be from Triven or Dokkens kennels. And i know some will disagree but id go with a pointing lab, and both these kennels produce them. good luck
 
Since you mentioned MI, I would second a visit to Hunter's Rose Kennels (http://huntersrosekennel.homestead.com/) ...excellent pointing labs with all the health clearances.

You might also want to check out another small MI breeder that has a sire with a great nose named Gator. He's a one man operation with the quest of bettering the breed of pointing labs. Also has all the health clearances. (http://www.gforceretrievers.com/aboutus.html)

I know both have, or will soon have, pups on the ground.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey!

Greg
 
Steve Mikkelson said:
I am starting to prepare myself for purchasing a black lab puppy more specifically researching, and could use any advice anyone is willing to share. Feel free to PM me or reply to this post. I live in West Michigan.

Here’s how I’m looking to use the lab (in order of importance):
1. Shed hunting
i. Needs a good nose​
ii. Must retrieve​
iii. Must have hunt and drive​

2. Family indoor dog – Brains / obedience is a must

3. Competition in the field – any type

4. Female that can provide me my next competition dog.
i. I would enjoy having a few litters if I can acquire enough knowledge to be confident I can improve the female’s performance through her off-spring.​

Here’s some background on me so we don’t have to start with go see the parents and start with good bloodlines.
1. I’ve raised, trained and bred competition beagles that run to catch the rabbit for 19 years
i. Phased out due to available training land and my available time to condition the hounds as it takes a good 20 hours a week for a couple months straight to have them in the physical and mental condition to succeed.​

2. I finished CKC & AKC field champions. Also accomplished the pinnacle of it all with AKC national championship win in 2006.
i. No intention a bragging or thinking I can do this in the retriever world, but my point is, I know the amount of work it takes to have a competition dogs that wins.​

3. I’ve bought beagles from the best breeders in the game throughout the US and Canada. I’ve bought dogs out of the best producers and I’ve bought and bred dogs with a glowing red pedigree.
i. I know that the above does not guarantee a thing, but I have learned that creditable and accomplished breeders, proven producers and a pedigree of dogs that suit your desires increase your odds of getting a good one.​

So here are some questions that I have, but feel free to share anything you think I should consider.

1. Any recommendations of breeders? Any in Michigan, northern Ohio or Indiana would be more easy for me to visit.

2. Any recommendations for bloodlines?

3. Expected price range for a female pup. I’ve seen AKC registered dogs from $100 to $1200. I do understand that the older the litter gets, the better price you will get, but you may miss out.

4. Skeletal Health certifications of the sire and dam. Do you stay away from fair or do you only buy excellent?

5. Should I be concerned when a breeder tells me they have never had to cull or is that just not done in the Labrador world?

6. Is there a magazine or web site that identifies a list of the best producing sire and dam for specific types of competition?

7. Is there a “godfather” of labs out there that is willing to share info with me? I know some of the old timers love to pass on there knowledge and others would rather spend the time in the field.

8. If you were to rate the main characteristics of the sire and dam I should consider, what would they be?

If you made it this far through my post, thank you very much for reading.
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Hi Steve - I saw you were looking for a lab pup. A fellow retriever club member of mine is about to have a litter. His Dog just won the NASHDA Shed Hunting championship this year and is being bred with a male lab that won the US Pheasant Open Championship. Let me know if you want more info and I can connect you.. Located in Minnesota as well. Good luck!
 
mnmthunting said:
Steve, welcome back. I'm telling Ya.:) Get a healthy Lab pup, back yard breeder or not. Get the pup young, Use a shed antler for him/her as a toy and fun, lots of hugs and praise, treats what ever.
This is not Science! This should not be complicated:confused:
You don't need to spend a ton of money, A fair price for sure. And for sure Your pup does NOT have to be pre trained.
Your Lab WILL hunt shed antlers for You. Trust me. :thumbsup:
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Amen :10sign:
 
additionally, go visit the breeder if you can, meet the parents of the potential pup you are buying, see the living conditions of the dogs. If the breeder cares about the dogs and they have decent lines you will get a good pup. Of course, how you raise and train it will determine the true potential.
 
puppies

from what i got out of reading your post, first off, good luck, that said, from your questions and attitude you ought to get one hell-ov alot more knowledge about what you are doing before you pick a pup and then you are already thinking about breeding other batches of pups and making in all likely hood more bad labs, ie: hunting ability, eyes, hips, you name it. this is the kinda thinking that got over 1/2 the labs in this country where they are today. please slow down. we don't need more labs, we need better labs and it seems like you are more interested in cost that good stuff

cheers
 
LoneRooster said:
Hi Steve - I saw you were looking for a lab pup. A fellow retriever club member of mine is about to have a litter. His Dog just won the NASHDA Shed Hunting championship this year and is being bred with a male lab that won the US Pheasant Open Championship. Let me know if you want more info and I can connect you.. Located in Minnesota as well. Good luck!
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Lone Rooster,

I have a friend looking for a pup in Minnesota right now as well. Please send me the info of your contact!
 
mustistuff said:
from what i got out of reading your post, first off, good luck, that said, from your questions and attitude you ought to get one hell-ov alot more knowledge about what you are doing before you pick a pup and then you are already thinking about breeding other batches of pups and making in all likely hood more bad labs, ie: hunting ability, eyes, hips, you name it. this is the kinda thinking that got over 1/2 the labs in this country where they are today. please slow down. we don't need more labs, we need better labs and it seems like you are more interested in cost that good stuff

cheers
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Thanks for your support mustistuff. I certainly plan to learn much more, and never stop learning until I decide I don't want a lab anymore. I am sure my time with hounds will provide one hell-ov alot more knowledge to fast track this process than an eager and willing buyer calling up a breeder after studying periodicals and forum discussions.

No need to worry about me breeding batches of pups. The reason for a female is to learn a bit more about breeding the labs. But that is only if I like her characteristics and she would provide me the opportunity to find a sire in attempt to improve upon her abilities. I didn't mean to foreshadow that I would be selling dogs or giving them away. My apology.

I've been breeding hounds for over half my life... linebred, inbred and outcrossed with a specific plan to accomplish an objective. I've buried five times more pups than I have ever let leave my house, and I've bred a large number of litters that would scare most on here. I identify a cull quickly based on the standard I develop for what I'm looking for. There is too much time wasted working with a dog that you don't like; cull it and move on to the next prospect. I have absolutely no intention and never had the intention to breed a litter for anyone other than myself and it won't start with labs. If someone likes my plan, and there is an access of pups, I may sell one. I've culled some of my pups based on size and build before they ever had a chance to run. I breed for myself and myself only. I breed to my standard and no one elses. I make the breeding choice to the stud I choose of whatever breed I choose. I feed the dogs that fit my standard; they are my property and that choice is solely mine what I choose to do with them. I certainly don't need (nor did I ask) anyones opinion about how, why, what or when I should make a breeding. But I will certainly study pedigrees and performance, listen to breeders tell me about the lineage, and listen to first hand observations about performance of any dog from there if I choose to bred a bitch, it will be purposeful with a specific goal that is rare to fully materialize.
 
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"I've buried five times more pups than I have ever let leave my house, and I've bred a large number of litters that would scare most on here."

I hope you are not implying that you have killed young pups for the sake of them not meeting your "standard"..I hope I am misreading that
 
Lone Roster,

If my response prior or below offends you, I'm sorry. I know of no other way than to express my true intentions and beliefs. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, which may become apparent or already was apparent.

They don't have to meet the exact standard, but must improve the goal in the right direction. The goal of every breeding should be to better the breed, and anything short should not be allowed to reproduce at least this is my opinion and to each, their own.

My mother hates this conversation about responsible breeding as I have a handicap brother, but these are not human beings. Dogs are property that have a sole purpose to serve it's intended use as the owner defines. If they do not suit your needs or they cause more harm than good, why would you choose to live with 10 to 15 years of dependency in caring for animal that is not what you want? If it's compassion, I get it, since I have children.

I have little appreciation for breeders that breed without a plan and just as bad to me are breeders that breed with a plan, but sell off their pups rather than keeping them because they don't want them in their breeding program as they failed to improve the sire or dam abilities.

I was surprised to learn the number of breeders that did not value the importance of culling. Maybe the lab world is more concerned about companions than field performance, which is okay by me. I want a pup from a breeder that breeds for a purpose and doesn't pass on those that don't meet his standard. When my standard aligns the closest with that breeder, I hope they will sell me a female pup.

I don't mean to offend anyone. This is a sensitive topic, but there is a difference between a salesman and a breeder. The salesman is concerned with the value of the property and the breeder is concerned with the breed.
 
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LoneRooster said:
"I've buried five times more pups than I have ever let leave my house, and I've bred a large number of litters that would scare most on here."

I hope you are not implying that you have killed young pups for the sake of them not meeting your "standard"..I hope I am misreading that
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You are not misreading it. Probably makes coats out of them or something. After all they are just property.
 
I do know the importance of the planning, devotion and commitment required to get what I'm after. I have a goal, and if I can't find the right breeder, I won't embark on the journey.

Below is a little proof with my AKC National Champion. He won this event at two years old in 2006 after twelve hours of continuous running to catch the game while competing against 35 of the best males in the country. He took 2nd place in the Canadian Nationals the weekend before. He finished his requirements for field champion in AKC and CKC while placing throughout the Midwest and Ontario. He is continually noted in the top sire list every year. He is a beast, and yes I am proud. I know what I'm after, and I believe I know the tough decisions that have to made along the way to realize my goal.


LPWin.jpg
 
I am glad you are not a "bleeding heart liberal", nor am I and I would imagine most people on this forum are not either. Politics aside..My concern is your lackadaisical attitude towards the life of dogs. The point of breeding is indeed to be selective to better the breed with the result of the litter being a successful one in which all the pups are top producers and become excellent dogs. Additionally, as a honorable breeder, it is important that the breeder finds a GOOD home for the dog. You seem to discuss a methodology of breeding in which you breed a litter and kill off the pups that immediately do not meet your standard. By doing this you are clearly breeding 2 dogs who should not be bred to begin with which seems slightly hypocritical or at least completely backwards. In order to get good pups you need to breed good dogs.. If you are having to kill pups in your litter, and you seemingly are as you mentioned above, then you are not being a responsible breeder or dog owner...not to mention if you really are killing dogs you are likely violating some animal abuse laws.... After reading some of your statements I regret passing along my friends contact info and attempting to assist you in your search for a lab. I would feel very bad for any dog that found you as its owner and I certainly hope you that you are unable to find anyone to give you one.

A big part of me is still hoping that this is some strange joke...:confused:
 
We won't agree Lone Roster. I appreciate your response and perspective. Maybe this is the wrong place for this type of discussion. If there is no support of my methods, I will no longer discuss them, and this will be my last post regarding breeding philosophy.

I'll just clarify a couple things.

I would always give away a "cull" without papers, but there are few homes for an unpapered dog especially a hound.

My standard will most likely not be achieved, but like I corrected myself earlier, the off-spring must be an apparent improvement towards meeting that standard. The time and money available limit ones starting point, but the ending point is determined by the individual doing the planning and making he decisions.

Biology is not an exact science as physics so the best crafted plans by the most highly educated people don't always yield improvement.

Here's a simple and hypothetically plan for a breeding to depict my methodology: Improve the "good" nose on my bitch, while maintaining her excellent fine bone structure. So I'm looking primarily for a sire that has an outstanding nose and a lineage that produces strong nose, but if I can't find a match with the fine bone structure, I will have take the male with the best nose and a heavy bone structure knowing I could get some with the heavy bone structure and some with the fine bone structure as well as some with the nose of my bitch.

After evaluation so I can determine a heavy bone structure, why would I keep those pups that only take time away from the remaining pups with the fine bone structure and are closer to my standard?

Lets say four pups made the cut at this point (half the litter)

Now they are in training and starting to run so I can now evaluate their nose a bit. Let's say half (two) have the nose that I'm looking for (I know nose continues to mature with age). I have two dogs left to continue to train, compete and enjoy.

My goal was not to make a dollar or produce a dog for anyone else. My goal was to improve my bitches characteristics in her off-spring by concentrating all of my available time to accomplish that goal.

Is that approach wrong? Not in my eyes or in many of the successful breeders of purebred animals. I have learned this. I did not dream it up. I have talked to biology professors, highly successful farmers, and highly successfully houndsmen. There is a common thread to their success, and I have adopted it.
 
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Labs are all around great dogs. They act like puppys for years. Pheasant hunting came natural for my lab. I mean shes far from perfect but she can get the birds. Keep the dog very active play fetch and etc. Labs love to be loved so make sure you show him you care when he does something good.
 
Steve M.,Check with Jeff Fuller at Soggy Acres Kennels, about labs, he has made more sense as to having a hunting Dog than most. Mr. Fuller and I have the same out look on hunting dogs as your best buddy. If this is more what you want , but if your dogs are more like cattle you raise it sounds like you may have found those people anyway. I helped work in a dairy farm, as a kid. but I still don't care for it but I understand it...Good luck with your search..
 
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