Hey guys I’m new to this forum. I train and run AKC retriever field trials with labs. I am thinking about getting a pointer for hunting. I grew up with my grandpa’s English setters. My question is what breeds typically come with a good bit of natural retriever drive? I would enjoy taking this dog to tower shoots and such outside of pointing work. My grandpa’s setters never really cared to retriever, but they weren’t FF either.
Picking a new pointer puppy
- Thread starter Judd
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Munster927
Well-known member
Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately if you get 20 responses to your question you'll probably see 20 different breeds mentioned haha
But my Small Munsterlander loves to retrieve and have seen good retrieving drive from Griffs and German Shorthairs in other people's dogs.
But my Small Munsterlander loves to retrieve and have seen good retrieving drive from Griffs and German Shorthairs in other people's dogs.
A5 Sweet 16
Well-known member
I hesitate to mention this, because purists think they're an abomination & not good for the breed (I don't necessarily disagree)....
but pointing lab??? They're probably not going away & lots of people love them. And I hear labs tend to retrieve.
but pointing lab??? They're probably not going away & lots of people love them. And I hear labs tend to retrieve.
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I’m also a purist, when it comes to labs. I have 3 very well bred field trial labs. Not a fan of the pointing lab lines. Would rather get a well bred pointer puppy for pointing.
That’s what I want. A solid pointer that I can run simple blinds with and take to a tower shoot to get a full day of flyers to pick up.
Chestle
Well-known member
I have a pointing Lab...sort of. She's out of England and I know her breeders so there's no pointing breed dog in the woodpile. I never "trained" her to point but I can easily tell when she's birdy. In her early years I'd just tell her "easy, easy" when she was getting real birdy. She knew what "easy" meant from the way she was given treats. No snapping at the hand, she had to slowly ease in and nuzzle the treat out to get it. Now the last 2-3 years she just naturally slows down when getting close and if the bird holds she will eventually freeze and roll her eyes to me like "right here, boss, he's RIGHT HERE".
So, purist? Well, she's purebred Labrador for as far back as they keep records. She retrieves. She points if the bird holds. I personally love this behavior. YMMV.
So, purist? Well, she's purebred Labrador for as far back as they keep records. She retrieves. She points if the bird holds. I personally love this behavior. YMMV.
Winchester30
Active member
Narrow your search to 2 or 3 breeds, then find a breeder near you that is willing to work and train with you to get you and your pup off to a great start. The breeder is as important as the breed.
jackrabbit
Active member
I have a very similar situation. Mine has developed what I'll call a flash point over the years and I love it. Enough so that I think my next dog in a year or two will be lab with pointing background, just to have a better chance of keeping that trait/style of hunting going for me.
carptom1
Well-known member
Boo
it is getting harder and harder to find one that doesn’t. While I can appreciate the thought, part of having a pointer is having the style. An English with a 12 o’clock poker tail or a nice setter is a beautiful site. Pointing labs evolved from dogs with a hesitation in their flush.
A5 Sweet 16
Well-known member
I didn't know that, but it sure makes sense. So they took those dogs & strengthened that idiosyncrasy through breeding?? I can see why those who think it's important to maintain, if not improve, the integrity of "traditional lab" breeding disagree with the practice.
carptom1
Well-known member
Sure as you breed two that have a timid or a flash point, soon that trait is breed into them. I can almost feel my breakfast coming up a bit saying this but I have contemplated going to the dark side
. The thought of trying to real in a hard charging flusher wears me out at my age. That was always the issue. How hard do let him push roosters without letting him hunt for himself. I do need a new dog and I have thought of a Draat, if for nothing else they look cool
Chestle
Well-known member
I have no problem with purebred Labradors that point, either naturally or as a taught behavior. Reinforce flash/hesitation points by mating two purebred Labs? Fine by me.
I see no reason why such dogs would not retain their innate retriever capabilities, so I see no loss of "traditional lab" breeding. Yes, Labs are thought of as flushers but if they work close and flush or work close and point I'd think most actual hunters would be happy either way. Flushing doesn't apply to an AKC retriever trial or hunt test anyway.
Where I personally draw my line is when outcrossing to a pointing breed is used to "reinforce" pointing behavior. When pointing Labs first became all the rage and they created the American Pointing Labrador Association then the dollars showed up. When there was fast money to be made, there were outcrosses. A LabraShorthair? No thanks, I'll pass.
You could see it in the heads, tails and general stature of the outcrossed dogs. A pointer head or a whip tail on a Lab is easy to recognize. Eventually it's possible to breed the Lab look back into that outcross and keep some pointing instinct I guess. I read somewhere long ago that after 8 generations after the outcross, the phenotype (looks) are pretty much back to normal.
I see no reason why such dogs would not retain their innate retriever capabilities, so I see no loss of "traditional lab" breeding. Yes, Labs are thought of as flushers but if they work close and flush or work close and point I'd think most actual hunters would be happy either way. Flushing doesn't apply to an AKC retriever trial or hunt test anyway.
Where I personally draw my line is when outcrossing to a pointing breed is used to "reinforce" pointing behavior. When pointing Labs first became all the rage and they created the American Pointing Labrador Association then the dollars showed up. When there was fast money to be made, there were outcrosses. A LabraShorthair? No thanks, I'll pass.
You could see it in the heads, tails and general stature of the outcrossed dogs. A pointer head or a whip tail on a Lab is easy to recognize. Eventually it's possible to breed the Lab look back into that outcross and keep some pointing instinct I guess. I read somewhere long ago that after 8 generations after the outcross, the phenotype (looks) are pretty much back to normal.
I'll stay out of the pointing lab conversation in this post, and I'll double-down on this comment. You'll varying degrees of retrieve drive in all the pointing breeds, and training can cover most of the short-comings. But if you want to talk tendencies, you'll find higher retrieve drive in the "versatile" breeds. Many have already been mentioned: GSP/DK, GWP/DD/Drathaar, SM, and FB. I'd also suggest Pudelpointer, Wirehaired Pointing Griffon, Vizsla, American Brittany.
But just to emphasize the main point, the bell curves on all traits overlap between breeds. It all comes down to finding a breeder who breeds for the traits you want. That's the most important point. It's just a little more challenging if you want to go against tendency, eg, a close working English Pointer that loves to retrieve and loves people.
I run Vizslas. My first was an enthusiastic player of fetch and often recorded truly amazing cripple finds. But I would never call her an outstanding retriever. She certainly lacked the style, but that never mattered to me. My other two are also extremely enthusiastic fetch players, but seem to lack the skill/focus/confidence/whatever to track down wounded roosters.
jackrabbit
Active member
I think my lab's ability to "flash point" is just simply what he has learned on his own over 10 years of quite a few wild pheasants. Years 0-2 I don't recall it happening ever, then a bit more each year after that to point where it's become quite common now. I think he has learned when to pressure a bird and keep chasing and learned when to "point" a bird so it'll hold.
Now I'll jump into the pointing lab debate, or rather, possibly derail this thread.
I've never understood this point of view, except as it pertains to a "truth in advertising" ethic. The breeds we have today were ALL created by mix-n-match breeding, at least until we decided that "breed" was a thing and that we shouldn't mix breeds anymore. Years ago were they better at it than we could be? Is there some sort of fundamental problem with the creation of new breeds? As long as the breeder is truthful about the dog's ancestry, who's to say that a careful breeder of GSP/Lab mixes couldn't produce a line of dogs that some hunters find absolutely perfect for their needs? Or any other combination of currently recognized breeds.
As a breed, the Boykin Spaniel is less than 100 years old and has this exact history: a hodgepodge of dogs selected for certain traits and then refined into some degree of consistency to meet a specific set of needs.
I'd bet that at some point AKC will recognize labradoodle and golden doodle as breeds. And who knows what other variety of "doodle".