mix

[wesslpointer]

http://www.pfstore.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=54&products_id=1852 What if you took a 40 put 10ac in this mix and planted the rest in green wheat , clover or grass hay then plowed it in late summer "after nesting" to recharge soil, also rotate the 10ac "food winter cover" each year and plow in old. If you did this on one 40ac for each 660ac you would pay farmer's to recharge there farm land and supply wildlife cover with the CRP money A 4 year program? Help me out guys "farmer's" is there a way to make this work? Just trying look at things differently as we lose CRP

 

[mnmthunting]

Just a quick search I found Sorghum seed for $40 for 50 pounds.
The seed You mentioned is 67.50 for 25 pounds.
Well, like all wildlife plot seed it cost a LOT more for what you get. Go to the local co-op. There's no difference in what the wildlife/birds will get out of it.

Not a bad idea You have though. A LOT! better then 40 acres of Fall tilled ground.
I can't deal with the Fall plowing the rest of it?
No matter what they tell You, pheasants need old growth grass for nesting. New growth grass at best results in late hatches. Not all that bad for hunters, Not at all good for next years reproduction.

You have good ideas though.:thumbsup:

 

[wesslpointer]

Just a quick search I found Sorghum seed for $40 for 50 pounds.
The seed You mentioned is 67.50 for 25 pounds.
Well, like all wildlife plot seed it cost a LOT more for what you get. Go to the local co-op. There's no difference in what the wildlife/birds will get out of it.

Not a bad idea You have though. A LOT! better then 40 acres of Fall tilled ground.
I can't deal with the Fall plowing the rest of it?
No matter what they tell You, pheasants need old growth grass for nesting. New growth grass at best results in late hatches. Not all that bad for hunters, Not at all good for next years reproduction.

You have good ideas though.:thumbsup:

I see the future of CRP going from "resting" to "recharging" We need to look at growing wild Pheasants on less ac . How would you make a 40 work so it has nesting, food, winter cover, and still recharge the land so as to work with the CRP. I think taxes from hunting alone would pay for the cost of a program like this.

 

[mnmthunting]

I don't understand the "recharging" by plowing up the grass in the Fall. It's exactly the same as a farmer doing fall tillage. I'm talking as far as pheasants and wildlife are concerned.
A field planted in a mix of perennial grasses and legumes will "recharge " the soil about a well as anything, actually better.
Look out on a patch waist high and thick. Picture as much organic matter under the soil as you see above. The natural decomposing of old growth on top and under soil is going on building, "recharging soil"

When I hear about USDA requiring CRP maintenance. Mowing, spraying, burning, recharging etc.
I'm afraid there is little knowledge or thought of pheasants.

Undisturbed grasslands are vital for any kind of quality pheasant nesting and brood rearing.

!0 acres of a 40 planted in sorghum, I like that.

 

[wesslpointer]

I don't understand the "recharging" by plowing up the grass in the Fall. It's exactly the same as a farmer doing fall tillage. I'm talking as far as pheasants and wildlife are concerned.
A field planted in a mix of perennial grasses and legumes will "recharge " the soil about a well as anything, actually better.
Look out on a patch waist high and thick. Picture as much organic matter under the soil as you see above. The natural decomposing of old growth on top and under soil is going on building, "recharging soil"

When I hear about USDA requiring CRP maintenance. Mowing, spraying, burning, recharging etc.
I'm afraid there is little knowledge or thought of pheasants.

Undisturbed grasslands are vital for any kind of quality pheasant nesting and brood rearing.

!0 acres of a 40 planted in sorghum, I like that.

I'm not tied to plowing every year may be at the end of A 4 year program? The reason I suggested 40ac is I think a small town in the Dakotas or a sportsman group could handle it. A large farmer could take a 40 out of production if his land is getting "recharge" and he is also paid. Does any one know if PF has a plan for a 40 along these lines. I think we need to find programs that are compatible with modern farming. The Bison, native grass and the large acreage CRP are not coming back.

 

[oldandnew]

I think that there is confusion in the habitat requirements for pheasants as apposed to bobwhite quail. Bobwhites need actively disturbed grounds, either burning about a third, or disking about the same. Quail require bare soil. It's the nesting and brooding that is the problem. Pheasant aren't much bigger than quail, need a easier, bug friendly ground to forage in as well, once they are bigger, ranker, grass is their home most of the year. Pheasants nest is alfalfa in most of the country, winter wheat in Kansas and Colorado, third if they have too, available grass. I think what the recommendations are slanted to quail, but benefit pheasants, but not pheasant specific! One thing has been proven, that it is NEVER winter feed which impacts pheasants, undisturbed nesting and brooding are the big problems, so on 40@ I would stress wide strips of nesting cover, delayed alfalfa, delayed wheat harvest, both encourage bugs, with high canopied field borders like CRP, wide! and some long linear plums, red willow sprouts , low growth cedars, or pines, shinnery oak, buffalo berry, snow berry, if it's sandy wild rose hips. If you have time a food plot like broom corn, milo, proso millet, dwarf corn. The food plot is way down the list. If you accentuate nesting cover, and brooding cover on your 40@, you will create a lot of birds who will be harvested across the fence, possibly on someone else's property. If you go for fall and winter habitat, you will have quite a few birds during hunting seasons, birds raised mostly, somewhere else, who migrated to you! But very little production on your own property. Estimated it takes a home range of about thirty acres to raise a brood, with ALL these habitats equally distributed, remember pheasants DID follow the plow, not rain as the previous generations thought.

 

[wesslpointer]

I think that there is confusion in the habitat requirements for pheasants as apposed to bobwhite quail. Bobwhites need actively disturbed grounds, either burning about a third, or disking about the same. Quail require bare soil. It's the nesting and brooding that is the problem. Pheasant aren't much bigger than quail, need a easier, bug friendly ground to forage in as well, once they are bigger, ranker, grass is their home most of the year. Pheasants nest is alfalfa in most of the country, winter wheat in Kansas and Colorado, third if they have too, available grass. I think what the recommendations are slanted to quail, but benefit pheasants, but not pheasant specific! One thing has been proven, that it is NEVER winter feed which impacts pheasants, undisturbed nesting and brooding are the big problems, so on 40@ I would stress wide strips of nesting cover, delayed alfalfa, delayed wheat harvest, both encourage bugs, with high canopied field borders like CRP, wide! and some long linear plums, red willow sprouts , low growth cedars, or pines, shinnery oak, buffalo berry, snow berry, if it's sandy wild rose hips. If you have time a food plot like broom corn, milo, proso millet, dwarf corn. The food plot is way down the list. If you accentuate nesting cover, and brooding cover on your 40@, you will create a lot of birds who will be harvested across the fence, possibly on someone else's property. If you go for fall and winter habitat, you will have quite a few birds during hunting seasons, birds raised mostly, somewhere else, who migrated to you! But very little production on your own property. Estimated it takes a home range of about thirty acres to raise a brood, with ALL these habitats equally distributed, remember pheasants DID follow the plow, not rain as the previous generations thought.

I think the brood estimate is low and would get much better over time as the birds get use to the lower ac. as to predator control and trapping it would be easier on just 30ac. Also with no trees rapture losses would be lower. If you could find old type alfalfa you could sell the single late cutting for 5 years and it may well pay for the one time seed and planting then add in CRP payments to help out with land lease. Wonder it someone has tried this? And again I think a town, sportsman group can afford to rent/buy a 40.

 

[oldandnew]

I think the brood estimate is low and would get much better over time as the birds get use to the lower ac. as to predator control and trapping it would be easier on just 30ac. Also with no trees rapture losses would be lower. Wonder it someone has tried this? And again I think a town, sportsman group can afford to rent/buy a 40.

Maybe I should have said it takes about a 30 @ home range for a pheasant, that sure could be a single 30@ tract, or that might be 30@ "contained" across a 100@. You can almost always house a covey of quail on 15@ if it is designed to do it, that means all effort at profit on the land except quail are discounted. In all these scenarios, it takes a broad brush of acres, to attain successful compensation breeding to make a huntable population. Property which is a refuge, can be a factor, where birds can go away from hunting pressure, but mostly the necessity to recover from ice storms, drought conditions where the breeding season is a bust, or some virus creates a toll on the population, not to mention the fall shuffle of birds to diversify the gene pool. All these things are an issue. But 40@ on each section, or linear corridors to allow interaction to adjacent populations is part of the factor. We use to have fence lines and hedgerows which mitigate this, most of these are history. Good news, corn is down to under 4.00 in South Dakota. That should create a more favorable cash return advantage with CRP. Discount the draining, farming marginal acres, probably make excess herbicides and pesticides less attractive as well.

 

[wesslpointer]

Just a quick search I found Sorghum seed for $40 for 50 pounds.
The seed You mentioned is 67.50 for 25 pounds.
Well, like all wildlife plot seed it cost a LOT more for what you get. Go to the local co-op. There's no difference in what the wildlife/birds will get out of it.

Not a bad idea You have though. A LOT! better then 40 acres of Fall tilled ground.
I can't deal with the Fall plowing the rest of it?
No matter what they tell You, pheasants need old growth grass for nesting. New growth grass at best results in late hatches. Not all that bad for hunters, Not at all good for next years reproduction.

You have good ideas though.:thumbsup:

If a planting of "sorghum" well handle all the winter cover why do you need shelter belts?

 

[mnmthunting]

If a planting of "sorghum" well handle all the winter cover why do you need shelter belts?

Wesslpointer, where are you located at?

Don't get the idea that woody cover is bad pheasant habitat.

The best pheasant areas I know are river bottoms. What they all have in common is woody cover, including trees, lots of them.

 

[wesslpointer]

Wesslpointer, where are you located at?

Don't get the idea that woody cover is bad pheasant habitat.

The best pheasant areas I know are river bottoms. What they all have in common is woody cover, including trees, lots of them.

That's not my point PF is clamming it to be "STAND ALONE WINTER COVER" http://www.pfstore.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=54&products_id=1852 Why go to time and exspence to plant shelter strips if In a year you can do the same just planting there mix. Sounds to good to be true.

 

[mnmthunting]

No, For long term survival of a pheasant population you MUST have woody cover. Windbreaks, shelterbelts, yard groves etc.

Read the article again, "Sorghum mix will enhance woody Winter cover and CAN stand alone as Winter cover".
Of this I have no doubt.

But You can't depend on NICE Winters in Dakotas, MT and MN, IA WI.

For example During the Winter of 2010-2011 a record 100 plus inches of snow fell during the season. With little or no thawing from late Nov-March. Wiped out entire pheasant populations. But thousands survived by getting into stackyards, cattle feeding areas, grain bins and artificial feeding near heavy woody cover.

And it DOES make a lot of difference (your location)
Kansas is a lot different then Dakotas.

The sorghum mix would be a FINE addition to your pheasant habitat. :thumbsup:

 

[oldandnew]

No, For long term survival of a pheasant population you MUST have woody cover. Windbreaks, shelterbelts, yard groves etc.

Read the article again, "Sorghum mix will enhance woody Winter cover and CAN stand alone as Winter cover".
Of this I have no doubt.

But You can't depend on NICE Winters in Dakotas, MT and MN, IA WI.

For example During the Winter of 2010-2011 a record 100 plus inches of snow fell during the season. With little or no thawing from late Nov-March. Wiped out entire pheasant populations. But thousands survived by getting into stackyards, cattle feeding areas, grain bins and artificial feeding near heavy woody cover.
I don't think pheasants would survAnd it DOES make a lot of difference (your location)
Kansas is a lot different then Dakotas.

The sorghum mix would be a FINE addition to your pheasant habitat. :thumbsup:

I don't think pheasants would survive long term even in Kansas or the Texas panhandle without stackyards, fencerows, and heavy cover. Our most favorite gamebird, is not designed to make it on virgin grasslands or continuous crop, even though un-harvested. The pheasant does not have the nose flairs, or nose breather plugs of the prairie chicken and sharptails, to block the ice storms, If it rains ice, they need to turn to avoid suffocating, then ice gets under their coat and they freeze to death. Need a core of "hard" cover to hold up in. May not need it forever, but at certain times it is critical! So the idea that grain sorghum will suit the bill, maybe a great amount of time, but at at nesting and core winter survival, you need the hard wind blocking, and superior overhead cover to make it through. In the sorghum, of course you will have some of the population survive, but not the vast majority. Same theory as grazing cattle on the plains with out hay, and winter cover! That went out in the 1890's. I suggested as have you there is a relationship between cattle and game birds management, which is not acknowledged by "professionals" who manage gamebirds. cattle breakdown the cover, allow runways in snow cover, pathways in prairie grass, digest some of the corn in feeding programs, but a lot is transferred, undigested to be easy gleaning for the pheasants, the seeds of prairie grass, germinates better AFTER being through the cow, cattle and pheasants,huns, and quail are sitting among the legs of cattle right now in a blizzard here, eating, safe between the overstory of the cattle to ward off winged prey, on trampled snow, digesting the excess corn, milo, weed seeds, and grass seeds, passed through the cattle. At night after an easy foraging day, they will stay as close as they can, in a hedgerow same as the cattle, using the cattle as an early warning system and their yarding area, and even their heat, of bunched, yarded up cattle to survive. Tip a hat to the cow! It takes wild theories of gamebird management, burning, reseeding, pruning cedars, and brush, that judicious grazing of cattle will solve! My granddad put cattle on timbered pasture, grazed it hard, had quail everywhere, we discontinued the winter grazing, no quail, resumed viola quail! Takes years of college education to come up with a solution to gamebird management with cattle. Interesting enough, the cattle actually make a living, rather than costing an arm and a leg to micro-manages game bird habitat.

 

[mnmthunting]

I don't think pheasants would survive long term even in Kansas or the Texas panhandle without stackyards, fencerows, and heavy cover. Our most favorite gamebird, is not designed to make it on virgin grasslands or continuous crop, even though un-harvested. The pheasant does not have the nose flairs, or nose breather plugs of the prairie chicken and sharptails, to block the ice storms, If it rains ice, they need to turn to avoid suffocating, then ice gets under their coat and they freeze to death. Need a core of "hard" cover to hold up in. May not need it forever, but at certain times it is critical! So the idea that grain sorghum will suit the bill, maybe a great amount of time, but at at nesting and core winter survival, you need the hard wind blocking, and superior overhead cover to make it through. In the sorghum, of course you will have some of the population survive, but not the vast majority. Same theory as grazing cattle on the plains with out hay, and winter cover! That went out in the 1890's. I suggested as have you there is a relationship between cattle and game birds management, which is not acknowledged by "professionals" who manage gamebirds. cattle breakdown the cover, allow runways in snow cover, pathways in prairie grass, digest some of the corn in feeding programs, but a lot is transferred, undigested to be easy gleaning for the pheasants, the seeds of prairie grass, germinates better AFTER being through the cow, cattle and pheasants,huns, and quail are sitting among the legs of cattle right now in a blizzard here, eating, safe between the overstory of the cattle to ward off winged prey, on trampled snow, digesting the excess corn, milo, weed seeds, and grass seeds, passed through the cattle. At night after an easy foraging day, they will stay as close as they can, in a hedgerow same as the cattle, using the cattle as an early warning system and their yarding area, and even their heat, of bunched, yarded up cattle to survive. Tip a hat to the cow! It takes wild theories of gamebird management, burning, reseeding, pruning cedars, and brush, that judicious grazing of cattle will solve! My granddad put cattle on timbered pasture, grazed it hard, had quail everywhere, we discontinued the winter grazing, no quail, resumed viola quail! Takes years of college education to come up with a solution to gamebird management with cattle. Interesting enough, the cattle actually make a living, rather than costing an arm and a leg to micro-manages game bird habitat.

I hope a lot of members read this, It's GOOD!:thumbsup:

 

[wesslpointer]

I don't think pheasants would survive long term even in Kansas or the Texas panhandle without stackyards, fencerows, and heavy cover. Our most favorite gamebird, is not designed to make it on virgin grasslands or continuous crop, even though un-harvested. The pheasant does not have the nose flairs, or nose breather plugs of the prairie chicken and sharptails, to block the ice storms, If it rains ice, they need to turn to avoid suffocating, then ice gets under their coat and they freeze to death. Need a core of "hard" cover to hold up in. May not need it forever, but at certain times it is critical! So the idea that grain sorghum will suit the bill, maybe a great amount of time, but at at nesting and core winter survival, you need the hard wind blocking, and superior overhead cover to make it through. In the sorghum, of course you will have some of the population survive, but not the vast majority. Same theory as grazing cattle on the plains with out hay, and winter cover! That went out in the 1890's. I suggested as have you there is a relationship between cattle and game birds management, which is not acknowledged by "professionals" who manage gamebirds. cattle breakdown the cover, allow runways in snow cover, pathways in prairie grass, digest some of the corn in feeding programs, but a lot is transferred, undigested to be easy gleaning for the pheasants, the seeds of prairie grass, germinates better AFTER being through the cow, cattle and pheasants,huns, and quail are sitting among the legs of cattle right now in a blizzard here, eating, safe between the overstory of the cattle to ward off winged prey, on trampled snow, digesting the excess corn, milo, weed seeds, and grass seeds, passed through the cattle. At night after an easy foraging day, they will stay as close as they can, in a hedgerow same as the cattle, using the cattle as an early warning system and their yarding area, and even their heat, of bunched, yarded up cattle to survive. Tip a hat to the cow! It takes wild theories of gamebird management, burning, reseeding, pruning cedars, and brush, that judicious grazing of cattle will solve! My granddad put cattle on timbered pasture, grazed it hard, had quail everywhere, we discontinued the winter grazing, no quail, resumed viola quail! Takes years of college education to come up with a solution to gamebird management with cattle. Interesting enough, the cattle actually make a living, rather than costing an arm and a leg to micro-manages game bird habitat.

The same is true of sage grouse in Idaho they followed the wild big game herds as they migrated but try telling that to the "PF" grouse biologists! And yes they did eat the little brown pills. ha ha

 

[Downtown Bang!]

The concept of creating conservation benefits that include a benefit to production is probably a good one.

A combination of programs to permanently retire (or even recreate) environmentally sensitive areas like wetlands, highly erodible soils, buffers for riparian areas with shorter term programs that create nesting cover & plant diversity for brood rearing could be very effective.

Winter cover is great & necessary but the biggest single limiting factor on bird numbers in much of the pheasant range is a shortage of usuable nesting cover.

I love seeing the big blocks of CRP that are set aside for 15 years but honestly feel the time for this may have passed.

What about rotaing smaller CRP acreages for shorter periods of time on parcels of land that provide marginal yields when farmed year in and year out. Production could be pretty good on these parcels for several years if they were "rested" for a few years.

Incentives to move a higher % of acres into winter wheat and other small grains? Incentives to plant alfalfa and then harvest for hay after the nesting season is over?

Lots of creative options are probably out there. The trouble will be providing the resources to smart people and giving them the flexibility implement. Big issue would be keeping the lobbyists and legislators questionable agendas out of the equation.

 

[haymaker]

The concept of creating conservation benefits that include a benefit to production is probably a good one.

A combination of programs to permanently retire (or even recreate) environmentally sensitive areas like wetlands, highly erodible soils, buffers for riparian areas with shorter term programs that create nesting cover & plant diversity for brood rearing could be very effective.

Winter cover is great & necessary but the biggest single limiting factor on bird numbers in much of the pheasant range is a shortage of usuable nesting cover.

I love seeing the big blocks of CRP that are set aside for 15 years but honestly feel the time for this may have passed.

What about rotaing smaller CRP acreages for shorter periods of time on parcels of land that provide marginal yields when farmed year in and year out. Production could be pretty good on these parcels for several years if they were "rested" for a few years.

Incentives to move a higher % of acres into winter wheat and other small grains? Incentives to plant alfalfa and then harvest for hay after the nesting season is over?

Lots of creative options are probably out there. The trouble will be providing the resources to smart people and giving them the flexibility implement. Big issue would be keeping the lobbyists and legislators questionable agendas out of the equation.

I am swithcing to 20 acre blocks of CRP, big enough for nesting small enough to hunt hopefully. I am going to try to plant winter wheat after soybeans in combination with corn and cover crops. This is experimental but hopefully I can make something work. Haying alfalfa after nesting is a waste of alfalfa. It will have very little value.

 

[oldandnew]

I am swithcing to 20 acre blocks of CRP, big enough for nesting small enough to hunt hopefully. I am going to try to plant winter wheat after soybeans in combination with corn and cover crops. This is experimental but hopefully I can make something work. Haying alfalfa after nesting is a waste of alfalfa. It will have very little value.

I have used later maturing alfalfa to allow for nesting. It's not nearly as high protein and it only produces 3 crops a year, in really dry years we might get 2! Aphid resistance is my goal to cut down weevils. I don't think the weevils are a factor up north, maybe rust or wilt are a problem. Alfalfa is a " trip crop" for pheasants, if it gets planted, they will nest in it. Various attachments are developed to help the carnage, usually with poor results on early harvest.

 

[haymaker]

I have used later maturing alfalfa to allow for nesting. It's not nearly as high protein and it only produces 3 crops a year, in really dry years we might get 2! Aphid resistance is my goal to cut down weevils. I don't think the weevils are a factor up north, maybe rust or wilt are a problem. Alfalfa is a " trip crop" for pheasants, if it gets planted, they will nest in it. Various attachments are developed to help the carnage, usually with poor results on early harvest.

We normally get one crop, sometimes two, so the one crop is important. Oh we do have weevils, lost of them. My strategy is to cut as early as possible trying not to get the hens. I have CRP beside the alfalfa so they have a choice and the ones that do nest in the alfalfa will move to the CRP for their second attempt.

 

[wesslpointer]

I don't think pheasants would survive long term even in Kansas or the Texas panhandle without stackyards, fencerows, and heavy cover. Our most favorite gamebird, is not designed to make it on virgin grasslands or continuous crop, even though un-harvested. The pheasant does not have the nose flairs, or nose breather plugs of the prairie chicken and sharptails, to block the ice storms, If it rains ice, they need to turn to avoid suffocating, then ice gets under their coat and they freeze to death. Need a core of "hard" cover to hold up in. May not need it forever, but at certain times it is critical! So the idea that grain sorghum will suit the bill, maybe a great amount of time, but at at nesting and core winter survival, you need the hard wind blocking, and superior overhead cover to make it through. In the sorghum, of course you will have some of the population survive, but not the vast majority. Same theory as grazing cattle on the plains with out hay, and winter cover! That went out in the 1890's. I suggested as have you there is a relationship between cattle and game birds management, which is not acknowledged by "professionals" who manage gamebirds. cattle breakdown the cover, allow runways in snow cover, pathways in prairie grass, digest some of the corn in feeding programs, but a lot is transferred, undigested to be easy gleaning for the pheasants, the seeds of prairie grass, germinates better AFTER being through the cow, cattle and pheasants,huns, and quail are sitting among the legs of cattle right now in a blizzard here, eating, safe between the overstory of the cattle to ward off winged prey, on trampled snow, digesting the excess corn, milo, weed seeds, and grass seeds, passed through the cattle. At night after an easy foraging day, they will stay as close as they can, in a hedgerow same as the cattle, using the cattle as an early warning system and their yarding area, and even their heat, of bunched, yarded up cattle to survive. Tip a hat to the cow! It takes wild theories of gamebird management, burning, reseeding, pruning cedars, and brush, that judicious grazing of cattle will solve! My granddad put cattle on timbered pasture, grazed it hard, had quail everywhere, we discontinued the winter grazing, no quail, resumed viola quail! Takes years of college education to come up with a solution to gamebird management with cattle. Interesting enough, the cattle actually make a living, rather than costing an arm and a leg to micro-manages game bird habitat.

Cant find any info on "noze flairs" do huns have them?