Losing confidence in dog

I started the thread about a dogs "aha" moment which was specific to my 2 1/2 year old female ESS. This is her 2nd full season and she is very good at finding dead birds, but is still figuring out the live birds. I also hunt with my 5 year old male black lab and it took him a couple of seasons to figure it out.
We hunted all day last Sunday, mostly on public, and we put up about 12 hens which were mostly sitting tight. Even though I didn't see a single rooster, this was a great experience for her as she found and flushed several birds. We hit some private ground in the afternoon and she got real birdy along a creek bank and a rooster ended up flushing out of range. She is slowly putting it together.
For us, this has been a challenging season for roosters on public ground and not an ideal classroom setting for a learning dog. That said, I was in the same boat as you the last year and a half, but she has consistently made progress which is what I want from a young dog.
One option for you would be to obtain some live pigeons and keep them in your vest while hunting, plant them when she's not looking, then call her over and make her stay in the area until she finds and flushes it. A few sessions of this should help her tremendously. Don't give up on her as long as you're seeing progress.
 
I would not send her to a trainer unless she's nothing more than a kennel dog. In fact, I would not send any dog that is also a house pet and companion animal to a trainer. It can only be confusing and even frightening for the dog. A young dog who has a happy home and loves its master is suddenly in a strange place with a strange person talking to it, disciplining it, etc. A friend has sent his house pet dogs time and again to trainers and it made no difference at all in the three dogs' behavior afield. Just keep building the bond w nice words, nice actions, and time together afield and at home.
 
BritChaser said:
I would not send her to a trainer unless she's nothing more than a kennel dog. In fact, I would not send any dog that is also a house pet and companion animal to a trainer. It can only be confusing and even frightening for the dog. A young dog who has a happy home and loves its master is suddenly in a strange place with a strange person talking to it, disciplining it, etc. A friend has sent his house pet dogs time and again to trainers and it made no difference at all in the three dogs' behavior afield. Just keep building the bond w nice words, nice actions, and time together afield and at home.
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I belive you made a great point here without your realizing it. The owner often needs more training then the dog.😉
 
Time to break out the wallet and head to a preserve. 4 hours of steady bird scent and you killing every bird that flushes is going to help a ton.
 
Be patient. I don't expect my dogs to get it until 50 plus bird encounters. Like others are saying bring the dog to game farm along with a check cord and work the wind. Some breeds come along faster than others. Birds make bird dogs NOT time.
 
BirddogGSP said:
Be patient. I don't expect my dogs to get it until 50 plus bird encounters. Like others are saying bring the dog to game farm along with a check cord and work the wind. Some breeds come along faster than others. Birds make bird dogs NOT time.
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Those game farms are expensive. Just hunt, and try to drop some birds,and if your puppy flushes a bird, make sure you make a kill shot!
 
BritChaser said:
I would not send her to a trainer unless she's nothing more than a kennel dog. In fact, I would not send any dog that is also a house pet and companion animal to a trainer. It can only be confusing and even frightening for the dog. A young dog who has a happy home and loves its master is suddenly in a strange place with a strange person talking to it, disciplining it, etc. A friend has sent his house pet dogs time and again to trainers and it made no difference at all in the three dogs' behavior afield. Just keep building the bond w nice words, nice actions, and time together afield and at home.
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I disagree with this. A good trainer should know how to approach different types of dogs to keep them from feeling abandoned. My dog definitely loved the training because it meant he chased birds every single day, which is not something most people can provide. And if you do have a specific problem, that's when the professional is most valuable. But it is expensive (specifically for good trainers).
 
Jawilor said:
I started the thread about a dogs "aha" moment which was specific to my 2 1/2 year old female ESS. This is her 2nd full season and she is very good at finding dead birds, but is still figuring out the live birds. I also hunt with my 5 year old male black lab and it took him a couple of seasons to figure it out.
We hunted all day last Sunday, mostly on public, and we put up about 12 hens which were mostly sitting tight. Even though I didn't see a single rooster, this was a great experience for her as she found and flushed several birds. We hit some private ground in the afternoon and she got real birdy along a creek bank and a rooster ended up flushing out of range. She is slowly putting it together.
For us, this has been a challenging season for roosters on public ground and not an ideal classroom setting for a learning dog. That said, I was in the same boat as you the last year and a half, but she has consistently made progress which is what I want from a young dog.
One option for you would be to obtain some live pigeons and keep them in your vest while hunting, plant them when she's not looking, then call her over and make her stay in the area until she finds and flushes it. A few sessions of this should help her tremendously. Don't give up on her as long as you're seeing progress.
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Yeah, your situation is very much like mine. She is flushing lots of hens, and a few roosters, but I would agree not an ideal classroom setting. Birds being shot that they find and flush is what needs to happen. And quite a bit of it.
 
I will disagree with any comment on game farm birds being easy for dogs to scent ... it depends ...

I have summer trained enough dogs on both pigeons (yuck) and quail and then in the fall trained on released birds with young dogs. I still do hunt released birds on a very rare occasion when someone wants to pheasant hunt on short notice, has limited availability, or simply did not want to buy a license.

So here is why ... when most game farm operator release birds they "shake/dizzy" them and drop them in place. The scent cone that forms around these dropped birds can be very narrow if they do not move. It the weather is calm, that much more difficult. I find my seasoned dogs often point these dropped birds closer than wild birds because they may not have moved and again the scent cone is so much smaller than a wild, moving bird.

This can be especially true in the summer and early fall when everything is green. It is my belief that chlorophyl helps mask bird scent a bit ... helps wild nesting hens.

If you go back to a game farm:

1) give the birds time to start moving about. If they run a bit, hopefully the dog gets on them for the chase ... especially a flushing dog ...
2) ride with the guy releasing birds or watch exactly where the birds are placed or have the spots marked ... you get the idea. You can then work the area where you know the birds are.
 
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Whole lotta trainers spend actual training time of about 15 - 30 min with a dog twice a day. Some are pretty skimpy on birds because of the cost.
Do the math ... a guy has 8 dogs they are training (clients + their own). 8 times 15 is two hours. 30 minutes is four hours. Double that and you are at 4- 8 hours. Summer heat ... early morning and late evening ... add in time spent getting all the dogs ready, etc...

Now that is certainly more than most dogs see living with their owner ... but I have found short blocks of intense training in early fall pulls a dog right into where they should be.
 
My Britts all find and point birds under one year of age. I am fortunate to have 2-3 dogs running most years ... I do not expect my bird dog to be top notch until about 3 years old. Have fun, learn, let them make mistakes ...

I, on a relatively frequent occasion hunt public spots others have just come off of and find birds ... wild birds will circumnavigate dogs and people. I have flushed birds that my experienced dogs appear to have missed. Maybe they simply ran inbetween us or back towards me and flush when I am the threat ... not the dog. I usually do not shoot at these dogs unless my Britt is well experienced. I want to shoot birds under point (especially with my younger dogs). I get it is different with flushing breeds.
 
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You guys rock, lots of awesome advice.
I’m trying my best to articulate what I’m experiencing. It’s tough though because it always so hot and cold, etc.

Not going back to a trainer. She did two weeks bird and gun. Did well, didn’t like the aggressive pigeons all that much. Twas alarming, but she would grab them with enough coaxing. I’ve worked with her as much as I can with this, and she has improved but is still lacking that killer instinct. She didn’t want to pick up dead birds for awhile either randomly but I believe I’m over that now. Loves when they flush, watches them all the way or if shot starts chasing for the retrieve. If they don’t flush ( like at a game farm) she is quite puzzled and pounces around them like a freaking cat, I rather have her freaking grab that bird. She does have a few pretty cool retrieves under her belt, hell her first retrieve was a full on water retrieve to hand.

Here’s where I’m at. I’m going back to the game farm and I’m either going to release the birds myself, or ride with the guy so I know exactly where they are. Im going to get a couple chukkars as well and possibly tape their wings. Shes a serviceable hunting dog no doubt but I need to see more.

Maybe she just doesn’t have that killer instinct or really high prey drive and that is something I need to come to terms with then and go from there.

Man, dogs can be pretty complicated things for an animal that sometimes likes to eat their own poop. Man alive
 
Unless you are bagging wild roosters on most every hunt, your dog hasn’t yet fully figured out why you guys are out there. You need to go back to the game farm (one that sells flight conditioned birds). The more exposure the more it figures out what’s going on. People put down game farms but there is no better place to give a young pup experience.
 
Sometimes on a slow day certain dogs can lose some interest. I've been on hunts where we haven't seen a bird in a loooooong time. Then I think the dog starts daydreaming like I do. Then I've had the dog get on a scent and flush a hen or two off her nose. She gets really excited and starts hunting really hard. I just love to see it. So what I'm saying is if bird contacts have been low and the young dog seems to lose a little interest that's normal.
 
Bob Peters said:
Sometimes on a slow day certain dogs can lose some interest. I've been on hunts where we haven't seen a bird in a loooooong time. Then I think the dog starts daydreaming like I do. Then I've had the dog get on a scent and flush a hen or two off her nose. She gets really excited and starts hunting really hard. I just love to see it. So what I'm saying is if bird contacts have been low and the young dog seems to lose a little interest that's normal.
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I’ve noticed this exact same thing too. And I’ve had the exact same things happen.

Just like I’ve been frustrated with her she’s probably been with me too. Shes surprised me a few times and has flushed a rooster off the nose and I wasn’t ready and missed. Talk about a let down for a young dog.

I agree no better place than a game farm for a young dog. Pretty much guaranteed bird exposure. But they are expensive, and I have a young family. Going to fork out the cash next week though to really see where we are at. I think people hate on them because they feel some guys see it as real hunting, which maybe they do or don’t but obviously it is not.

I think I have a few things going on. I have a young dog who is not very experienced, also said dog definitely has some quirks and is not very bold and unsure of her skills as a predator. Maybe I can unlock that, maybe I can’t.
 
Springer22 said:
I’ve noticed this exact same thing too. And I’ve had the exact same things happen.

Just like I’ve been frustrated with her she’s probably been with me too. Shes surprised me a few times and has flushed a rooster off the nose and I wasn’t ready and missed. Talk about a let down for a young dog.

I agree no better place than a game farm for a young dog. Pretty much guaranteed bird exposure. But they are expensive, and I have a young family. Going to fork out the cash next week though to really see where we are at. I think people hate on them because they feel some guys see it as real hunting, which maybe they do or don’t but obviously it is not.

I think I have a few things going on. I have a young dog who is not very experienced, also said dog definitely has some quirks and is not very bold and unsure of her skills as a predator. Maybe I can unlock that, maybe I can’t.
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You can unlock that.......exposure, experience, confidence building and patience.
You have a hunting dog.
 
Lots of good input here. I think you're fine. Around here, conditions have been EXTREMELY challenging. Tons of cover available. Super educated birds. Really dry. Zero snow. And it's either been completely still or blowing 30+ mph. All things that tip the scales in favor of pheasants, rather than the hunter or his dog. And remember, just because you THINK you're the one finding/flushing pheasants, I believe almost every time, the dog probably played about a 90% part in it. But when a dog is working a moving bird, difficult conditions make it more likely the bird might run into YOU & flush, before the dog can pinpoint it. But you can almost guarantee the dog knew that bird was around & was applying pressure. Keep taking her out. Experience is everything. And really consider whether your expectations are realistic. Sometimes it seems like springers can make roosters materialize from thin air, but the truth is there has to be a rooster there to begin with, & that part is on you.
 
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