Lab Training Suggestions

Hoster05

Hoster05

Member
I am seeking suggestions on training a lab for pheasant hunting. I am getting her towards the end of November. I have read Gun Dog by Wolters and although it is a little outdated I plan on using some of the techniques as I am limited to the space of my yard and a public park across the street. I am curious as to what other books/DVD's ya'll have used, especially related to the E-collar.

Thanks!
 
Urban Gun Dogs: Training Flushing Dogs for Home and Field
by Tony Roettger and Chip Schleider

Training Retreivers and Spaniels to Hunt 'Em Up! By Joe Arnette and George Hickox

Those are a couple of good ones. They are more geared towards spaniels, but I assume that's the type of hunting you will do with your lab in the pheasant fields.
 
I used Wolter's gun Dog back in the 80's and early 90's, trained a couple of pretty good dogs with it...but I feel there's much better stuff available today.

Start with Jackie Mertens Sound Beginnings; cheap, and gets you from 7-10 weeks with all kinds of fun stuff to get started. Or, Bill Hillmann has a new video out called The Art of Raising a Puppy...I haven't used it myself, but I understand it is very good, and launches the Hillmann philosophy. It's on my wish list to get it.

Around 10-11 weeks, go with Hillmann's Training a Retriever Puppy; a little pricey, but well worth it IMO. I've used this for my last 2 pups with amazing results. Incorporates very low pressure learning, and at the end of 22 sessions you'll have a dog that knows "sit means sit", steady to throw, marks well, is accustomed to an e-collar, and has manners...plus a bunch more. You can do everything Hillmann does in your back yard or in the park...with the caveat that the park may hold a few more distractions :D. Hillmann also posts on YouTube, so you can see some of his stuff there.

From here, you've got a lot of choices to go forward; Stawski's Fowl Dogs, more Hillmann, Mike Lardy, Evan Graham, etc. What Hillmann teaches will transition nicely to more formal OB and advanced training programs

I also suggest finding a local hunt test club or HRC group and join them. You will find good people who follow the techniques above, and can provide help when you need it.

Good luck with your pup!
 
Training DVD

George Hickox Great Beginings DVD for training the upland retriever. I thought this one was well done, straight forward and covers the basics
 
As mentioned above, you should be looking at Spaniel training books & since Labs are now allowed to enter AKC Spaniel hunt tests, you might look for a spaniel club to train with.

If your focus is on pheasant hunting, be cautious taking advice from retriever trainers/clubs that train for retriever hunt tests. They are excellent at what they do (waterfowl hunting) but they put an emphasis on control that will tend to inhibit your dogs initiative as a bird finder.
 
Last edited:
Do you know if your lab is being bred with a strong pointing instinct? If so, I like perfection kennels videos. They are very user friendly and show a range of dog temperaments. I planned to use those for my pointing lab had I not sent her off to Dale swiderski to get trained. Best of luck.
 
Fowl Dawgs by Rick Stawski is a great DVD for about 20 bucks. It is very thorough on the basics which is where you should start. And no I would not be looking at spaniel training tools. You have the best all around breed and a very versatile breed. Raise the puppy the correct way. Sound Beginnings is a good start then go into the basics of Obedience, Force Fetch, the Collar Conditioning. After that you can get into more advanced training. I think Fowl Dawgs is very good for the money and a great tool for the hunting retriever.
 
Nimrod said:
As mentioned above, you should be looking at Spaniel training books & since Labs are now allowed to enter AKC Spaniel hunt tests, you might look for a spaniel club to train with.

If you?re focus is on pheasant hunting, be cautious taking advice from retriever trainers/clubs that train for retriever hunt tests. They are excellent at what they do (waterfowl hunting) but they put an emphasis on ?control? that will tend to inhibit your dog?s initiative as a bird finder.
Click to expand...


LOL this could not be further from the truth.
 
westksbowhunter said:
LOL this could not be further from the truth.
Click to expand...

Westbow... I'm curious why you think so... The OP is going to ask his lab to do the work of a spaniel. Why not train him like one? I've seen spaniels trained as nonslip retrievers when their primary function is a duck dog.

Also, some may argue your comment about "best all around breed." In fact, I might if you provoke me haha
 
mnaj_springer said:
Westbow... I'm curious why you think so... The OP is going to ask his lab to do the work of a spaniel. Why not train him like one? I've seen spaniels trained as nonslip retrievers when their primary function is a duck dog.

Also, some may argue your comment about "best all around breed." In fact, I might if you provoke me haha
Click to expand...

I was referring to his control comment. When we teach a dog to sit to flush are we not putting control in a dog? Really a completely trained retriever is inhibited for bird finding? If he thinks that my blind running retrievers can't hunt with his flushing dogs he is a complete fool. And I think the tracking ability of my male dog on a crippled running rooster could not be out done by any dog alive. The next time I take my retrievers out duck hunting when the temps are below zero and we are hunting in 70 foot off water you are more than welcome to come and pick up birds and send them on 300 yard water blinds.

I love springers and would like to own one one day. I would not say that the way they are trained would prevent them from doing anything. A well trained dog is a well trained dog. I don't care if your dog is a hunting dog or family dog, have a well mannered dog that is obedient makes a happy dog and owner. He maybe around some trainers that have to use force to get their dogs to comply and are robots, but now those would not be well trained now.

There is no reason the OP can't train his dog as an upland dog and also as a waterfowl dog and have a well rounded companion. That is the beauty of owning a retriever, their versatility. Following a good retriever program will give him the best of both worlds and bring out the most of the dogs ability. Then you have a retriever who can hunt upland, waterfowl, dove, a hunt test, or even go to a European Pheasant shoot to just pick up birds.
 
Last edited:
My recommendation is based on my own experience coming from the retriever game to Springers about 15 yrs ago. I've seen dozens of Boykins and several Labs & Goldens come train with our spaniel club after training as non-slip retrievers and while they can certainly learn to upland hunt, they don't usually reach their potential as the majority of them remain too dependent on their handlers when they should be focused on finding birds.

Retriever hunt test training involves teaching a dog to use his eyes rather than his nose. In fact, he is corrected when he fades with the wind in an attempt to bring his nose into play on a mark.

In pheasant hunting, the dog that knows how to use the wind will cover the ground more thoroughly with fewer steps. Often dogs that have been trained to rely on their eyes will try to see the birds they scent, creating a hesitation flush that gives an advantage to the pheasant.

The upland dog must have "initiative" to follow up on a faint scent. After you've watched enough dogs, you can see him catch a trace then lose it, then find it again...
Retriever training discourages initiative, for example by correcting the dog if he tries to pick up a "poison bird" when sent on a blind. He learns that his nose gets him in trouble.

Pheasants very commonly hit the ground & run. Retriever training teaches dogs to stay in the area of the fall.

I can go on but the bottom line is, if you want to learn about retrieving, the retriever world is the place. But if you want to train a flushing dog, the spaniel trainers do things the way they do & in the sequence they do for good reason.
 
Last edited:
Nimrod said:
My recommendation is based on my own experience coming from the retriever game to Springers about 15 yrs ago. I've seen dozens of Boykins and several Labs & Goldens come train with our spaniel club after training as non-slip retrievers and while they can certainly learn to upland hunt, they don't usually reach their potential as the majority of them remain too dependent on their handlers when they should be focused on finding birds.

Retriever hunt test training involves teaching a dog to use his eyes rather than his nose. In fact, he is corrected when he fades with the wind in an attempt to bring his nose into play on a mark.

In pheasant hunting, the dog that knows how to use the wind will cover the ground more thoroughly with fewer steps. Often dogs that have been trained to rely on their eyes will try to see the birds they scent, creating a hesitation flush that gives an advantage to the pheasant.

The upland dog must have "initiative" to follow up on a faint scent. After you've watched enough dogs, you can see him catch a trace then lose it, then find it again...
Retriever training discourages initiative, for example by correcting the dog if he tries to pick up a "poison bird" when sent on a blind. He learns that his nose gets him in trouble.

Pheasants very commonly hit the ground & run. Retriever training teaches dogs to stay in the area of the fall.

I can go on but the bottom line is, if you want to learn about retrieving, the retriever world is the place. But if you want to train a flushing dog, the spaniel trainers do things the way they do & in the sequence they do for good reason.
Click to expand...

Your summary is just the opposite of my retrievers, and every retriever I have owned for the last 40 years. I think maybe the dogs you are talking about may be strictly trial dogs who don't hunt. A lot of white coats would never take their dogs to the uplands because of what you describe. Not because the dog is incapable of doing the work but because they want robots like I described. But that is not how I advocate he trains the dog. Following any Carr Based program will give him the best of both worlds.

Once I have the basics in my dogs, obedience, force fetch, and collar conditioning we go straight to upland work. Teaching quarter drills which I have explained on here before. The quartering drills I teach would be the correct way to teach any dog regardless of breed. Teaching quartering is teaching quartering. Taking a dog to the field for any training or hunting before yard work is complete is not the proper way to train a dog. If that is the case the dog is training itself.
 
Nimrod said:
My recommendation is based on my own experience coming from the retriever game to Springers about 15 yrs ago. I've seen dozens of Boykins and several Labs & Goldens come train with our spaniel club after training as non-slip retrievers and while they can certainly learn to upland hunt, they don't usually reach their potential as the majority of them remain too dependent on their handlers when they should be focused on finding birds.

Retriever hunt test training involves teaching a dog to use his eyes rather than his nose. In fact, he is corrected when he fades with the wind in an attempt to bring his nose into play on a mark.

In pheasant hunting, the dog that knows how to use the wind will cover the ground more thoroughly with fewer steps. Often dogs that have been trained to rely on their eyes will try to see the birds they scent, creating a hesitation flush that gives an advantage to the pheasant.

The upland dog must have "initiative" to follow up on a faint scent. After you've watched enough dogs, you can see him catch a trace then lose it, then find it again...
Retriever training discourages initiative, for example by correcting the dog if he tries to pick up a "poison bird" when sent on a blind. He learns that his nose gets him in trouble.

Pheasants very commonly hit the ground & run. Retriever training teaches dogs to stay in the area of the fall.

I can go on but the bottom line is, if you want to learn about retrieving, the retriever world is the place. But if you want to train a flushing dog, the spaniel trainers do things the way they do & in the sequence they do for good reason.
Click to expand...

I simply cannot disagree more with virtually everything you've written. I don't know which retriever game you played, or how you and/or your pro trained for it, but I would respectfully suggest that if one applied so much pressure to take the initiative out of the dog using a Carr based program, they really didn't understand the program correctly. You got out of the retriever games 15 years ago...suffice it to say that a lot has changed in that time frame regarding retriever training... I would bet you could say the same for spaniel training (perhaps).

There's a bunch of Labs that make the trek to SD every year for our pheasant hunt; 2 all-age field trial dogs, 2 Master Hunters, 1 Senior Hunter (who probably got his master pass this summer), a couple of meat dogs, and my Sophie, who is 1-for-1 on Junior Hunter passes...all of them hunt with abandon, yet under control, and do a stellar job in the pheasant field. Well, Sophie will be getting a little OJT on this year's hunt...but I'm confident that I and my pro have instilled the right foundation for her to be a great dog (she just turned 2)

I'm with Westksbowhunter on this one: in my 30 years of Labs, I've trained them Amish and I'm now training them with Carr-based programs. There's nothing in a Carr-based program that will adversely affect a dog's initiative or make it inhibited in a real hunting environment when that program is correctly taught/applied.

You do make a valid comment re: spaniel trainers do things a certain way for a reason; I'm going to respectfully suggest that is because they're training spaniels. Lab guys also do things in a specific way for a reason...they're training Labs. Last I looked, the OP (whom we've probably scared away by now) is getting a Lab. IMHO, he would be best served using a program designed for Labs, and he would absolutely find guys who know what they're doing by joining a retriever club.
 
Last edited:
westksbowhunter said:
Your summary is just the opposite of my retrievers, and every retriever I have owned for the last 40 years. I think maybe the dogs you are talking about may be strictly trial dogs who don't hunt. A lot of white coats would never take their dogs to the uplands because of what you describe. Not because the dog is incapable of doing the work but because they want robots like I described. But that is not how I advocate he trains the dog. Following any Carr Based program will give him the best of both worlds.

Once I have the basics in my dogs, obedience, force fetch, and collar conditioning we go straight to upland work. Teaching quarter drills which I have explained on here before. The quartering drills I teach would be the correct way to teach any dog regardless of breed. Teaching quartering is teaching quartering. Taking a dog to the field for any training or hunting before yard work is complete is not the proper way to train a dog. If that is the case the dog is training itself.
Click to expand...


I will also add that under your philosophy, should he train the dog as a pointing dog? Maybe his Labrador will point. So why not train it as a Brittany? The reason why is that he has a versatile dog. Regardless of breed or hunting style, every dog training program begins with basics. Could my dogs pass an AKC Master test, probably not. And I wouldn't enter one of those snobbish test anyway. Could they pass an AKC Senior test, yes. Could they compete in a spaniel flushing test, my young female could. My male couldn't because he points when a bird holds tight. My point is that they are versatile. Cold weather does not stop them. Sub zero temps in icy cold water is not an issue. And they can hunt upland with the best spaniels out there.
 
Vammy said:
I simply cannot disagree more with virtually everything you've written. I don't know which retriever game you played, or how you and/or your pro trained for it, but I would respectfully suggest that if one applied so much pressure to take the initiative out of the dog using a Carr based program, they really didn't understand the program correctly. You got out of the retriever games 15 years ago...suffice it to say that a lot has changed in that time frame regarding retriever training... I would bet you could say the same for spaniel training (perhaps).

There's a bunch of Labs that make the trek to SD every year for our pheasant hunt; 2 all-age field trial dogs, 2 Master Hunters, 1 Senior Hunter (who probably got his master pass this summer), a couple of meat dogs, and my Sophie, who is 1-for-1 on Junior Hunter passes...all of them hunt with abandon, yet under control, and do a stellar job in the pheasant field. Well, Sophie will be getting a little OJT on this year's hunt...but I'm confident that I and my pro have instilled the right foundation for her to be a great dog (she just turned 2)

I'm with Westksbowhunter on this one: in my 30 years of Labs, I've trained them Amish and I'm now training them with Carr-based programs. There's nothing in a Carr-based program that will adversely affect a dog's initiative or make it inhibited in a real hunting environment when that program is correctly taught/applied.

You do make a valid comment re: spaniel trainers do things a certain way for a reason; I'm going to respectfully suggest that is because they're training spaniels. Lab guys also do things in a specific way for a reason...they're training Labs. Last I looked, the OP (whom we've probably scared away by now) is getting a Lab. IMHO, he would be best served using a program designed for Labs, and he would absolutely find guys who know what they're doing by joining a retriever club.
Click to expand...

Agreed and that is why I suggested Fowl Dawgs to him. It will take him through the basics and has a great segment on upland work. And it is Carr based as well.
 
Westbow, I understand what you're saying. And for every breed and type of hunting dog there needs to be a balance of control, independence, and desire. I don't think anyone could argue that point.

But you're starting to come off as "my way or the highway." There are a lot of different programs and ways of training, and a lot of them can produce fantastic dogs. But I hunt my spaniels before they are finished. They simply need to be reliably hupping and coming when called, plus be introduced to the gun, birds, and patterning. I let them chase and have fun because I'd rather reign them in then try to push them out. But these are preferences, not gospel.

Also, I have no doubt that there are incredible upland labs, and you may have one, but you may want to slow down before proclaiming yours can run with the best spaniels in the upland fields. I mean, I've seen some spaniels that are amazing waterfowl dogs, but I wouldn't want to see them run against a field champion retriever.

To the OP, do your research. Find a program that you like and more importantly UNDERSTAND. And then follow that program. Don't rush and enjoy your time with your dog.
 
Teach basic obedience, Force fetch, collar condition, and than teach dog to quarter and trail. This will give you a better dog than most out there. When you realize how much fun you are having join a retreiver club and start running HT's. You will meet great people that love dogs, you will not have to worry about getting your dog in shape come fall, and you will have a kick ass dog. Plus you will have great training grounds and access to birds for training.

Anyone that says a HT/FT dogs can't hunt upland are ill informed. The misconception that FT/HT dogs are robots is a bunch of crap. The only difference is they are very well bred, very well trained, and very naturally talanted dogs. My Master dogs sit in a duck blind as the sun comes and flushs roosters on the way back to the truck. Start with Hillman, transition to Stawski, Smartworks, or my favorite Lardys TRT.

PS Teaching a dog to quarter and trail is a piece of cake compared to running a 300 yard keyhole blind. I honestly believe other than solid obedience experiance is the best teacher for an upland meat dog.

I'm not trivializing what it takes to run spanial tests as these dogs are fascinating at how the adjust to wind direction and speed. To play at this level you need to do far more work than is required for a meat dog. Same with retreiver test!

PPS in my world meat dog is a compliment
 
mnaj_springer said:
Westbow, I understand what you're saying. And for every breed and type of hunting dog there needs to be a balance of control, independence, and desire. I don't think anyone could argue that point.

But you're starting to come off as "my way or the highway." There are a lot of different programs and ways of training, and a lot of them can produce fantastic dogs. But I hunt my spaniels before they are finished. They simply need to be reliably hupping and coming when called, plus be introduced to the gun, birds, and patterning. I let them chase and have fun because I'd rather reign them in then try to push them out. But these are preferences, not gospel.

Also, I have no doubt that there are incredible upland labs, and you may have one, but you may want to slow down before proclaiming yours can run with the best spaniels in the upland fields. I mean, I've seen some spaniels that are amazing waterfowl dogs, but I wouldn't want to see them run against a field champion retriever.

To the OP, do your research. Find a program that you like and more importantly UNDERSTAND. And then follow that program. Don't rush and enjoy your time with your dog.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree. Lots of ways to train a retriever. You could follow Lardy, Hillman, Knutson, Dobbs, etc. All different in their approaches all produce good dogs. I happen to follow Carr because it seems to work for me. That's why I suggested Fowl Dawgs. Had Nimrod not made his remark about retrievers we would not even be discussing this.

As far as a Field Champion, that does not always translate to a great hunting companion. Most FC AFC owners don't hunt their dogs anyway. They learn to use their god given talents instead of the robotic ways trained into them. My good friend owned and trained his dog to FC AFC title. Litter mate to Honest Abe. He nor the dog never hunted in their life. And he judged field trials all over the country.
 
Great to see all the different opinions and how proud everyone is of their dog(s). At the end of the day it comes down to spending time with the dog and following a plan that works best for dog and owner. All the books, dvd's, articles are really just a guide. spending time with the pup reinforcing different commands is the best thing one can do. I think the best thing for me to do is continuing researching and following the guides so I know what to look for when implementing a plan.
 
Vammy said:
I simply cannot disagree more with virtually everything you've written. I don't know which retriever game you played, or how you and/or your pro trained for it, but I would "respectfully suggest" that if one applied so much pressure to take the initiative out of the dog using a Carr based program, they really didn't understand the program correctly. You got out of the retriever games 15 years ago...suffice it to say that a lot has changed in that time frame regarding retriever training... I would bet you could say the same for spaniel training (perhaps).
Click to expand...

I ran AKC & UKC retriever tests as recently as 3 yrs ago. I used Lardy's TRT program & I titled 4 dogs in retriever tests. I have also trained 3 Springers & one Cocker of my own for field trials. I would "respectfully suggest" that you may not have a complete understanding of the nature of pressure and it's effects.

There's a bunch of Labs that make the trek to SD every year for our pheasant hunt; 2 all-age field trial dogs, 2 Master Hunters, 1 Senior Hunter (who probably got his master pass this summer), a couple of meat dogs, and my Sophie, who is 1-for-1 on Junior Hunter passes...all of them hunt with abandon, yet under control, and do a stellar job in the pheasant field. Well, Sophie will be getting a little OJT on this year's hunt...but I'm confident that I and my pro have instilled the right foundation for her to be a great dog (she just turned 2
Click to expand...

If this is the typical SD style hunt where a line of hunters & dogs drive toward blockers, I'm afraid that doesn't require a trained pheasant dog so we're not even talking about the same skill set.

Wait, you have a pro training your JR dog? :rolleyes:


You do make a valid comment re: spaniel trainers do things a certain way for a reason; I'm going to respectfully suggest that is because they're training spaniels. Lab guys also do things in a specific way for a reason...they're training Labs. Last I looked, the OP (whom we've probably scared away by now) is getting a Lab. IMHO, he would be best served using a program designed for Labs, and he would absolutely find guys who know what they're doing by joining a retriever club.
Click to expand...

The pup won't know what color he is. Training for retriever tests teaches duck dog skills. Tell me what pile work, double t, or cheating drills have to do with pheasant hunting? Of course you can take a dog from this background & given enough bird contact, he'll probably make a useful flusher. But he'd be a lot better if you started him differently.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top