Lab Training Suggestions

Nimrod

Dennis Robbins was the authority on training retrievers through the 60's 70's 80's and 90's. They scaled a way back and I don't believe he trains at all anymore. Anyway he bred and trained some of the best Canadian Field Bred and titled retrievers in the country. While titled field champions, they were the best upland and waterfowl dogs you could hunt with. Ironically he also bred and trained the best springers in Canada as well. He trained his retrievers as retrievers and springers as springers. Each breed served its purpose but I think that Dennis would be the first to tell you that by training a retriever like a retriever will not inhibit its ability in the field whatsoever.

I think maybe what you may be getting at is that the field trials and hunt test that we see in the U.S. now is so far fetched from hunting that maybe the 2 don't go hand in hand. Which I would agree with. Those people running field trials have to be some of the worst personalities I have ever met. If you have ever met Lyle Stienman you should know what I mean. Or just go over to RTF forums met those uppity @#%^&**(()*&^%. The hunt test people seem to be the ones that also hunt their dogs but those test are simply junior varsity field trials. But the concept of basic dog training remains the same. Get the dog birdy, train obedience, collar condition, force fetch, then jump into the field work including lots of upland work. My dogs can run simple blind and multiple marks but I want them running to the mark down wind using their nose to locate the bird as quickly as possible. I could care less about the line they take. I just want to handle the dog if needed. Once the basics are done I do more upland work than anything. I keep a loft of pigeons here and we go to the field several days a week. My dogs quarter like an Olympic skier. My little 50 lb female goes on 2 legs with her nose in the air, you would swear she was a springer. But she can also duck hunt when most people wouldn't even hunt their dogs, below zero temps in deep water.
 
You don't have to convince me how good retrievers can be as pheasant dogs. I've spent more days afield w/ Labs than any other breed. My earlier warning against asking a hunt test trainer about training a pheasant dog is because most will tell you to wait until he's finished w/ advanced handling or else he will learn to hunt his way to the blind. Isn't it ironic that "hunting" is considered a bad thing in a hunt test?

For the all-around gun dog, I think it's critical to get them quartering & using their nose early. I teach a puppy "sit/hup" & "here" with treats & praise and then collar condition those commands after FF. I don't introduce "heel" until the pup has shown confidence in hunting out in front for awhile.

Dogs started this way will tend to retrieve the way you describe- running to the area of the fall before fading w/ the wind to bring their nose into play. But it takes advantage of their strongest asset.
 
But no one is suggesting he takes the dog to a pro through transition training and advanced training. Who could afford 10 months at $800 a month anyway. We are suggesting basic retriever training so you have a manageable dog in the field. We are also suggested training tools to help guide him along the way and to train the dog as a hunting retriever.

Sounds like you train the same as me and most retriever trainers I know. I may walk them in a zig zag earlier and often but I don't teaching actual quarter with helpers in the field until after force fetch because I want a proper delivery. You can't correct in the field until the basics are done. There is a big difference between introduction and training. After force fetch, we begin quartering by having 2 helpers flanked about 20 yds on each side of me and infront about 5 yds. We start by having one helper saying "hey hey hey" and waving a dummy getting the 8 month old dog running hard toward the dummy one there the other helper starts saying "hey hey hey" turning the dog as we slowly walk. The dog is zig zaging with excitement. Once the dog gets the hang of it I start with a twill of the whitsle each time he turns to the helper. After several sessions we periodically fire the gun and toss a dummy for a retrieve. Now I have a proper delivery and can inforce with the collar or ear pinch cause I have already force fetched and collar condition. The dog understands exactly what it is supposed to and can be corrected for mistakes. Then we go to tossing birds, then to planting shackled pigeons, then shooting planted birds. This is great fun for the dog and his formal obedience, cc, and ff does not hamper him her in the least. I teach heel early so I have the control in the field before we begin quartering and field work. My dogs are confident from the start because they are getting birds every week from the time they are 8 wks.
 
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Gatzby said:
Anyone that says a HT/FT dogs can't hunt upland are ill informed. The misconception that FT/HT dogs are robots is a bunch of crap. The only difference is they are very well bred, very well trained, and very naturally talanted dogs.
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What I said was "while they can certainly learn to upland hunt, they don't usually reach their potential as the majority of them remain too dependent on their handlers when they should be focused on finding birds."

A dog that has been trained extensively on blind retrieves sometimes runs like he's expecting to hear a whistle or command at any time when he's introduced to upland hunting. In training a number of dogs like this for spaniel tests, I always know where I've planted a bird so I know when the dog crosses the scent cone. Very often, these "very well bred" dogs don't make the bird when they should. It's as if they're running with their nose turned off. It certainly doesn't happen every time I've seen it enough that it doesn't surprise me.

Spaniel & pointing dog trainers know that a dog that has only one thing on his mind - I need to find a bird! , he tends to be better at it than one who is anticipating a command.

PS Teaching a dog to quarter and trail is a piece of cake compared to running a 300 yard keyhole blind. I honestly believe other than solid obedience experiance is the best teacher for an upland meat dog.
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It's not rocket surgery, but until I got involved with spaniels, I admit I never appreciated the difference it makes when a dog understands how he should change his pattern in a cross wind or down wind. I didn't even know what it should look like and I've found very few hunters do.

You are correct that experience is how dogs learn upland hunting and training is simply giving them that experience. The more times a dog follows a trail & is successful, the better he'll be at it. I'll start him off w/ easy trails (shackled duck, shackled pheasant, guinea hen, etc.) & make sure he's successful. If his first time to track a pheasant is on a wild bird that has been avoiding hawks & coyotes his whole life, his chances of success are fairly slim. If every time he tries to trail a bird he fails, it's not hard to imagine that he stops trying. How would you even know?

The dog that runs the correct pattern for the wind condition takes a fraction of the number of steps to cover the same ground as one that doesn't. The more ground you cover before you run out of dog, the more birds you'll find.



PPS in my world meat dog is a compliment
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Mine too :cheers:
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The idea that we teach a Lab to hunt, makes me laugh! We teach them to hunt the way we want them to hunt. They already can hunt 100 times as good as any human... we just guide and force them to hunt the way we want them to.

I would talk with a trainer that you feel comfortable with and ask them for guidance. Most dogs will do almost anything to please you and want to learn to hunt how you want.

If you want a robot train it be a robot, if you want a pet that hunts train it obey and let it's instincts take over while you control him/her to your pace.
 
Sorry to hear about your Golden's seizures. My Golden (fifth one I've had) has seizures, also. This started about a year ago at age 4.

These episodes last about 2-3 minutes, with no apparent reason as to why they start.

My dog comes from a breeder in Chicago - "Top Brass." How about your dog? Any liter mate's have this issue?
 
jonnyB said:
Sorry to hear about your Golden's seizures. My Golden (fifth one I've had) has seizures, also. This started about a year ago at age 4.

These episodes last about 2-3 minutes, with no apparent reason as to why they start.

My dog comes from a breeder in Chicago - "Top Brass." How about your dog? Any liter mate's have this issue?
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Mine came from Elk River and is out of that same lines. Great dog, she has drive and is a great pet. My labs have taken over. I have the 2 Red labs.:thumbsup:
 
"west metro"...we must be neighbors! I'm in Minnetonka.

I hunted last year with Joel, a.k.a. Golden Boy, this site. He has the most amazing Golden - quite the hunter.

Wondering why you switched to Labs?
 
I'm in Rockford off WHY 55.

I hate cleaning up the dog for 2 hours after hunting... Labs are easy and I have 2 good ones! My 3 year old is a dream to hunt and a great home dog... and the wife loves the ease of Labs also. Happy wife, happy life! :D

My Golden still will get her hunting in.... I put a bunch of money at the game farm to keep the dogs on birds, she will be fine with just that. 5 days 3-4 times in SD is a little harder.
 
What part of SD do you hunt?

For years we hunted near Miller, then that went away. We're now west of Chamberlain a ways. Long drive from Minnetonka!
 
I hunt the Central part of the State mostly but the drives don't bother me.... heck I drove 14 hours to hunt Huns in Montana... :D
 
jonnyB said:
I assume you hunt the Golden...tell us more about this dog.

Thanks
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I am embarrassed that I wrote this much.
Once the memories started coming, I didn't want them to stop.
Damn these allergies. Make it hard to see.

His name was Rook. I put him down 3 yrs ago at the age of 12. He was the finest "all around" dog I've owned in 35 yrs. I trained him early on upland hunting, later on Lardy's TRT. He looked like a setter when he ran; just floated over the ground & when he crossed a scent cone, the hackles on his shoulders would come up & he drove in like a missile!

He trailed runners a little slower than a good Springer but he was very, very good at finishing. His nose was as good as any dog I've known & once while training with a spaniel club, he made a bird & drove across the beat like an arrow an honest 60 yds to blow that pheasant out with as bold & "off the ground" flush you an imagine. I have never seen anything like it before or since.

In the duck blind, he was such a gentleman. One morning I met a friend & we walked in the dark 1/4 mile to the lake where we found a spot, put out our dekes & settled in under gillie blankets about 10 yds apart.

At dawn, a flight came in, we dropped some birds & I sent Rook for the retrieve. My buddy exclaimed "Where'd he come from? I didn't even know you had a dog with you!" He was serious. I hadn't given a single command since we'd parked our trucks an hour earlier.

Of course there are no perfect dogs. He didn't really mature & hit his stride until he was 4 or 5 yrs old. I ran him in hunt tests earning his SR title with 5 straight passes but when we moved up to Master, he struggled to mark the 3rd bird, needing to be handled too regularly. Generally, if you need to handle more than once on marking tests, you fail. So I quit running him in hunt tests, maybe too early in hindsight, & we hunted birds instead of ribbons.

Although he was not much as a competition dog, I don't recall a single time his inability to count to 3 ever mattered. He handled very smoothly. It was a game that he loved. He came along at a phase in my life when I had the time, money & unquenched desire to hunt. From opening day of dove to early teal, then a road trip to Michigan for grouse. Kansas for pheasants, ducks in Texas then back to Kansas again for late season pheasants, and finally quail till the end of Feb. He was the ultimate dog for all seasons.

But the "sweet spot", when he had it all figured out & the stamina to do it was much shorter than a Labrador who matures so much younger or a Springer, who can hunt hard into their teens. By nine, his body was wearing out. Maybe it was the miles but it happened too soon. I don't think I'll get another Golden. He left too big of a hole in my heart. But the memories....so many memories.
 
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It was this dog that opened my eyes to the realization that for the me at least, there is such a thing a "good enough" retriever. The difference between a dog that can pick up all the ducks on his own & one that takes a few whistles to get some of them is insignificant.

On the other hand, even a little bit of difference in skill, efficiency & nose when pheasant hunting might make a difference in finding a cagey rooster or not.

Of course, my idea of duck hunting these days is over small-med sized stock tanks in Texas while my upland hunting is on walk in/ public land where the stupid birds are gone after opening day.

For the guy with abundant, lightly hunted upland game but big water waterfowl, the conclusion may well be different.
 
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