Hunting pressure vs. pheasant/quail population

jaytee said:
Well so far nobody has been able to prove my numbers/math are wrong. All I know is that I've got a covey of about 9 birds, just seen them this morning. If I went out and shot 2, maybe 3, then their chances of survival through the winter would be slim. And if say a house cat or something else kills one or two more then their chances of survival is pretty much nill. Isn't that a pretty fair and accurate statement? Like I said earlier, I know and understand that the main roadblock to restoring quail numbers is having quality habitat not only on say your 80 acres but also on the next 80 and next 80, ect. Connectivity is the key. Now as far as the udside down argument, I agree to a certain point. The one thing I wonder about is dispersal and self regulation. If you have an area that has lots of quail and lots of hunters, explain to me how by reducing the numbers of quail in the good area will not reduce the numbers of quail available to disperse to areas of marginal habitat, habitat that will hold quail, just not large numbers?
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In the situation (where numbers are so low you are worried about a single covey) you are talking about you probably shouldn't hunt it at all. If you had adequate habitat and conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
 
jaytee said:
Well so far nobody has been able to prove my numbers/math are wrong. All I know is that I've got a covey of about 9 birds, just seen them this morning. If I went out and shot 2, maybe 3, then their chances of survival through the winter would be slim. And if say a house cat or something else kills one or two more then their chances of survival is pretty much nill.

Sounds to me like you have a perfect oppurtunity to have your own study and answer your own questions! Go shoot some and find out and document what you discover!
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I can't imagine a 4-40 rooster hen ratio at Spring breeding.
If it were the case, I would certainly have no problem with it.
Those roosters are non stop at breeding time, most of the time breeding a hen much more often then necessary.
One breeding will service the hens developing eggs, say the eggs she will lay within a week. Hormones will dictate when she needs another service. Roosters don't give a crap if service is needed or not, they will bred anytime at every opportunity, hen approval or not.:)
 
morrismike said:
In the situation (where numbers are so low you are worried about a single covey) you are talking about you probably shouldn't hunt it at all. If you had adequate habitat and conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
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Jaytee is managing a small tract in the middle of an area with poor quality quail habitat. He is not the big ag, souless "Great Satan" as your post seems to imply. He is a good guy, doing the best he can,with the ground he can afford. If you read the series of previous posts, you might recognize that quail require a large uninterrupted acreage of habitat. What we are trying to decide here, is whether in an enviorment a small patchwork of quail habitat scattered and fragmented, does hunitng pressure decrease the quail population past sustainability. If all the experts did as much as Jaytee has we would not need this post!
 
One issue which confounds the quail theory either way, is the fall and spring shuffle. It is possible, actually likely, that nature has a programmed the quail to wander,seasonally, regardless of the quality of the habitat. This was a trait which worked for us in the past, as birds pioneered new areas and became established. Now they wander looking for new territory, never finding what they need and falling prey. We have a poor ability to account for those birds. But my final theory is that if you start with forty birds in October, you will lose some to fall shuffle, by spring you'll lose more, and by nesting season you'll have the same thing you started with. Of the 80% population turnover we are taught on an annualized basis, what giant percentage are shuffle birds, travelling alone in strange territory, looking for a new covey, or a mate, they never find.
 
HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT:):)

IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME:D:D


All the rest is just numbers and deatils:cheers:
 
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I really think we need to take the Pheasant out of this discussion as from what I can tell from the other responses, they are quite different from the Bobwhite Quail. The major advantage that the phes has over the quail is sex identification on the fly. This is a huge factor in species survival as far as I can tell. Imagine how many more quail would still be around if we weren't able to harvest the hens like in pheasant hunting. It will be interesting to see what my numbers are come spring, which thankfuly is only a couple months away and how things pan out after the spring shuffle.:) I've been working on my neighboring landowners to do some habitat work but I've not been to successful yet but I aint giving up.
 
jaytee said:
I really think we need to take the Pheasant out of this discussion as from what I can tell from the other responses, they are quite different from the Bobwhite Quail. The major advantage that the phes has over the quail is sex identification on the fly. This is a huge factor in species survival as far as I can tell. Imagine how many more quail would still be around if we weren't able to harvest the hens like in pheasant hunting. It will be interesting to see what my numbers are come spring, which thankfuly is only a couple months away and how things pan out after the spring shuffle.:) I've been working on my neighboring landowners to do some habitat work but I've not been to successful yet but I aint giving up.
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You realize that in almost all cases the rooster quail helps with incubation and brood rearing. It is realatively common for the rooster quail to incubate and raise a brood on his own. In years with superior conditions the hen will often leave voluntarily, find another mate, and start a new nest and new brood! As you say clearly the quail is no pheasant! Sex selection as far as harvest is not as much an issue, as the possible loss to the breeding population and winter survival of any single bird. It's one reason, I believe that the quail conservation organizations need to be focused on quail, since pheasants are a completely different management issue. You can have realively intense agriculture and still have pheasants, quail are less adaptable.
 
OldandNew is right, biologist have a name for it and I forget it.
Basically in Bobwhite Quail, everything likes to eat them and weather can affect them. It was that way before and will be that way in the future.
The adaptation that BWQ have made is to adjust the clutch size and or multiple clutches in order to take advantage of given habitat.
Similar to a cottontail rabbit.
This is why quail numbers can explode after a harsh winter but with ideal habitat.
They simply will produce as many as can take advantage of the given habitat. For BWQ habitat is the key issue, for roosters. The male will run rampant like the only teenage boy at prom.
 
oldandnew said:
Jaytee is managing a small tract in the middle of an area with poor quality quail habitat. He is not the big ag, souless "Great Satan" as your post seems to imply. He is a good guy, doing the best he can,with the ground he can afford. If you read the series of previous posts, you might recognize that quail require a large uninterrupted acreage of habitat. What we are trying to decide here, is whether in an enviorment a small patchwork of quail habitat scattered and fragmented, does hunitng pressure decrease the quail population past sustainability. If all the experts did as much as Jaytee has we would not need this post!
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Not digging on him but it seemed the topic had more to do with hunting pressure vs. habitat. I feel his pain and we had quail out the yazoo when I was a kid and they're all gone. I would feel bad about hunting where I grew up now.
 
ranchodeluxe said:
The actual rooster to hen ratio is probably more like the 4 to 1 you mention,but wouldn't neccessarily need to be for good reproduction.See below from PF website.
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I agree. From what I've seen (pheasants here in N. IL) the average is between 2 to 3 hen's per rooster. The most I've witness around here was 8 hen's to 1 rooster in the spring of 2004.

But, as you basically mentioned, 1 rooster can go above and beyond his average breeding ratio of 2 to 4 hens when the opportunity arises.

When faced with low rooster #'s and high hen #'s, hens will seek out and find a rooster to mate with even if roosters are scarce.
 
morrismike said:
Not digging on him but it seemed the topic had more to do with hunting pressure vs. habitat. I feel his pain and we had quail out the yazoo when I was a kid and they're all gone. I would feel bad about hunting where I grew up now.
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I didn't take it as a dig. As for hunting the birds I have, the gun will stay in the safe untill I have at least 2 coveys of at least 10 birds each on my little 70 acres of quail paradise. I'm hoping that this will be a short hiatus.:cheers::cheers:
 
jaytee said:
I didn't take it as a dig. As for hunting the birds I have, the gun will stay in the safe untill I have at least 2 coveys of at least 10 birds each on my little 70 acres of quail paradise. I'm hoping that this will be a short hiatus.:cheers::cheers:
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Can you work with your neighbors on habitat?
 
jaytee said:
I know that a lot of the biologist and others in the know seem to really voice their opinion when it comes to arguing wheather or not hunting/killing game birds has a negative affect on populations. I for one have a hard time believing that it doesn't. If you've got 40 birds lets say and hunters take 20 of 'em then that leaves 20 to make it through winter. How can anyone argue that if those 20 weren't taken by hunters then you'd have a certain percentage of those birds to survive through till spring? It seems like simple math to me. Could someone please explain this in laymans terms.
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Jaytee,

I ran across this (see below) from a Nebraska document. Although it does not speak directly to your mathematical approach, it does shed some theory that requires some consideration. I agree on potential gains from reduced pressure for quail on small area tracts like WMA but not for vast areas like an entire state. I deal with hunting pressure issues on a daily basis for 94,000 acres, I have access too 40 years of harvest data and hunter numbers. I can attest to the fact that quail hunters typically self regulate. The bag limit changed 10 Quail per day to 5 birds 12 years ago. It made no successful gains. Adjacent property has 54,000 acres, where no hunting is allowed. Still no quail to brag about.

I commend you on your habitat efforts; keep up your great inspirational work.:thumbsup: Hopefully, many other will follow your lead.:10sign:




From Nebraska

Moreover, the "law" of dimiminshing returns suggests why hunting pressure is related to population density: when numbers are down, the extra effort required to locate them discourages many hunters from pursuing quail. Moreover, during periods of severe cold and snow, most hunters are reluctant to spend time in the field. These two factors justify allowing quail hunting in areas of low population density and in months severe weather is most likely to occur.

Reduced bag limits, another frequently offered suggestion, are a subject of some disagreement. Although reductions may be of value in some limited areas, it is not clear that minor changes in limits have any significant effect, especially in Nebraska where most quail are taken incidentally to pheasant hunting and few hunters take a full limit on any given day.
 
morrismike said:
Can you work with your neighbors on habitat?
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I've been trying to but with little success so far. I've got a co-worker that owns 50 acres a quarter mile from me,(we're seperated by another 80), and he's been wanting to do some foodplots for deer but I've been trying to steer him towards doing quail stuff. So far all we've done is spray some fescue in fencerows and tried planting some beans last year but the drought pretty much put the kaibosh on those plans. And my neighbor to the west is a recent widow and she's hesitant to do anything at the moment. I did talk to her about possibly buying part of her farm, she's got 70 acres total with most of it in bottom/open ground with some potentially good areas to work with.
 
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