How can they hay this much public ground

You only have so many days to count drumming grouse. A good windy day and you won't hear near as many grouse drumming. But those days numbers are counted. When is a certain grouse gonna drum? No guarantee your gonna hear him drum when you stop to listen for your count. Grouse numbers were 'supposedly' down this year again in MN. I flushed an average of 40 birds a weekend. I don't count re-flushed birds. And I don't hunt the same cover twice. I had pretty darn good numbers of birds. It's not the first time the projected numbers didn't match up with my experience. Counting animals from what you see and hear driving around is not a good way to get a population estimate. If the roadside habitat/food isn't as good as the habitat 1/2 mile in from the road and you won't see/hear much for game. Your better off counting ant's in your driveway.
 
If I was a SD resident I would be tickled by the fact that nonresident licenses sales are of some 30% or more from peak sales some 15 - 20 years ago. Resident licenses sales actually bounded back significantly in 2020. Be interesting to see the 2021 stats.
 
Zew said:
You only have so many days to count drumming grouse. A good windy day and you won't hear near as many grouse drumming. But those days numbers are counted. When is a certain grouse gonna drum? No guarantee your gonna hear him drum when you stop to listen for your count. Grouse numbers were 'supposedly' down this year again in MN. I flushed an average of 40 birds a weekend. I don't count re-flushed birds. And I don't hunt the same cover twice. I had pretty darn good numbers of birds. It's not the first time the projected numbers didn't match up with my experience. Counting animals from what you see and hear driving around is not a good way to get a population estimate. If the roadside habitat/food isn't as good as the habitat 1/2 mile in from the road and you won't see/hear much for game. Your better off counting ant's in your driveway.
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The ruffed grouse count is indeed a count of drumming males and does not necessarily predict fall bird counts ... a couple of our peak drum years were marred with wet brood seasons and less than idea fall numbers (in some places).

ND actually runs both a spring crowing count and an August brood survey on pheasants. Spring count is generally a measure of winter severity.

SD brood survey counted adults and young of the year. There were certainly flaws in the process ...

Did you hunt multiple counties across a wide swath of MN or just one area ? There are always areas of good populations even in low years ... true for grouse, pheasants, most any game bird.

There was some hope that the drier warmer spring would result in better hatch and brood survival.

I have access to some prime private ruffed grouse land. The place and its trails are about a half mile in from a main road. I would say numbers were about average this year. On the west side of the state where I have good trails and spots ... I would say the last two years are far below what I saw (and harvested) a couple 2 - 3 years prior.

When I was younger I hunted an average of 8 - 10 counties for RG each fall. West edge to Wisconsin boarder. Did not get to top tier MN counties but anywhere from just north of the cities to Hwy 2 and a bit north were my stomping grounds. Peak drum count years were most often best, but good covers (balsams, aspen and swamps) always held birds.
 
August brood counts are run because the hen brings her brood to the road edges to dry off the morning dew. Year to year climate certainly was a variable.
 
I hunt grouse from North Branch to the Canadian border and back. Used to hunt them in SE MN as well.
 
Zew said:
You simply can't count populations from the side of a road. Is just not accurate.
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the same bird counting criteria had been used for many years. for GF to suddenly decide it was no longer a good tool for estimating bird populations is bogus. i wager they lost more license sales than they gained in money save by ending the surveys.
any time you end a fact based program, you are killing transparency.
i know they lost me for next season. and due to how they handle the hay issues. simply less cover to hunt and less cover for survival/nesting.
 
So, because they used it for years means it has to work? Maybe someone finally realized it's not a good way to count populations.
 
Don’t have time to read it all, have chores to do before getting out hunting; bottom line, I want to trust that SD GFP is managing its wildlife for the long term, “marathon not a sprint”. Problem is, I don’t. I’m in the investment business, I understand the concept of deferred gratification…I like how that feels, frankly. So, SD GFP, do your thing, give some overview if you would, and I’m good with your decisions if it makes sense, not cents. I want a long-term plan that makes sense for the wildlife, not cents for the state.
 
Zew said:
So, because they used it for years means it has to work? Maybe someone finally realized it's not a good way to count populations.
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If other states drop similar surveys, I’m willing to consider. They haven’t. What is happening here is a “blinding flash of the obvious”. Don’t overthink it.
 
Zew said:
You simply can't count populations from the side of a road. Is just not accurate.
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You should notify MN, IA, ND, KS, NE, MT…probably some others! This is a rough tool to get a rough estimate, conducted pretty much the same way, at the same time, each year. Just a rough, approximate tool. Don’t forget SD has dropped from over 100k NR hunters just 10 years ago to under 70k today…what do you think they’re concerned about? 🤮 103k NR licenses in 2007, 62k last year. Those are facts and 100% accurate, no guessing! Think they’re worried? Think they’d do something rash like discontinue the survey? I know what I think!!!!🤡
 
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I wish the wildlife departments would survey the farmers and ranchers and publish that data. Let's get it right from the people who are there daily on the land. Kansas used to use mail carriers but Im not sure some of those reports were that accurate either. Undoubtedly we will never see a farmer report as it would most likely hurt license sales. The sooner everybody takes the wildlife departments info as the marketing propaganda it is the better. I live in Kansas and hunted a lot last year and saw very few in state hunters past the first week. What I did see was the same story of out of state groups that had read/saw from Pheasant Forever or KDWP that there were strong numbers and good hunting to be had. The locals knew the score and these out of state folks get lead to believe that you won't drive around most of the day looking for spots and walking fields where your dogs may never get birdie. Now there are some birds around but I'd bet that most would not drive from several hours away and spend the money if they had the truth.
 
hunter94 said:
the same bird counting criteria had been used for many years. for GF to suddenly decide it was no longer a good tool for estimating bird populations is bogus. i wager they lost more license sales than they gained in money save by ending the surveys.
any time you end a fact based program, you are killing transparency.
i know they lost me for next season. and due to how they handle the hay issues. simply less cover to hunt and less cover for survival/nesting.
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I do believe if counts were real high it would have continued. Once you are posting counts 20% of what they were it becomes a detriment to license sales. It absolutely was an attempt to hide it. If counts were high it would not have gone away
 
carptom1 said:
I do believe if counts were real high it would have continued. Once you are posting counts 20% of what they were it becomes a detriment to license sales. It absolutely was an attempt to hide it. If counts were high it would not have gone away
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Totally agree. I can't speak for how SD did the survey, but in MN they used local people to drive the same routes. Much like the person above who said they should talk to farmers. That's basically what MN does. Have locals drive the same route as previous years, log how many birds they see and report.
 
GetTothePoint said:
I wish the wildlife departments would survey the farmers and ranchers and publish that data. Let's get it right from the people who are there daily on the land. Kansas used to use mail carriers but Im not sure some of those reports were that accurate either. Undoubtedly we will never see a farmer report as it would most likely hurt license sales. The sooner everybody takes the wildlife departments info as the marketing propaganda it is the better. I live in Kansas and hunted a lot last year and saw very few in state hunters past the first week. What I did see was the same story of out of state groups that had read/saw from Pheasant Forever or KDWP that there were strong numbers and good hunting to be had. The locals knew the score and these out of state folks get lead to believe that you won't drive around most of the day looking for spots and walking fields where your dogs may never get birdie. Now there are some birds around but I'd bet that most would not drive from several hours away and spend the money if they had the truth.
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I live in Kansas also. Their hiding of the truth is definitely planned. The upland forcast is eerily similar every year for the last several years. We get the “ pockets of birds” every year. I certainly wouldn’t drive a long way to hunt what I have access too. I have a field of long grass I can walk the dog through in my backyard.
 
We could debate this til the cows come home. Rough estimate of the population maybe. But
Munster927 said:
Totally agree. I can't speak for how SD did the survey, but in MN they used local people to drive the same routes. Much like the person above who said they should talk to farmers. That's basically what MN does. Have locals drive the same route as previous years, log how many birds they see and report.
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Perfect example. The landscape is ever changing but yet they drive the same routes. Let's stop trying to count critters that move around and rate the habitat quality instead.
 
Zew said:
The landscape is ever changing but yet they drive the same routes.
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What other routes should they drive? Not like there's a new road to drive on every August. They can't deploy helicopters or drones to count critters and they can't drive through a standing cornfield with a truck.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the birds counts are a precise number. The states that do them all clearly indicate that they are estimates and essentially should be taken with a grain of salt.

Maybe there is a better way to do an estimate using quality habitat as a data point. Might be worth submitting that suggestion to a state regulatory agency.

South Dakota discontinued theirs because they saw it as a detriment to marketing non-resident licenses.
 
They drive 110 30 mile routes, I believe. Mostly gravel. Not likely strip malls or housing developments today vs CRP 15 years ago. All ag land, much of which changes as far as use is concerned over time. I bet lots of WPA’s and GPA’s are nearby. 30 miles of gravel is a lot of countryside x 110….I hunt same general area for 29 years, cover has changed, not all for the worst! But if habitat disappears, so will bird count, so survey will reflect that, as it should.
 
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I’m out driving around today, where there’s cover…cattails, good switchgrass, etc, there’s birds. Cover is the key. Done for the day, mainly cattails in the middle of harvested fields. NRCS came out with a program to enroll small chunks of unfarmable ground into CRP. Local guy who owns 10k acres put about 12 chunks into CRP. My buddy has hunting rights. It’s paying off.
 
Munster927 said:
Totally agree. I can't speak for how SD did the survey, but in MN they used local people to drive the same routes. Much like the person above who said they should talk to farmers. That's basically what MN does. Have locals drive the same route as previous years, log how many birds they see and report.
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CO’s drove the routes. I’m good with that. Part of the trick is spotting and counting chicks. I am amazed at fellow hunters not seeing adult birds when driving around! 😳
 
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