How about those WSU Shockers!

Tough loss for the Shockers. It was one of the best played games of the tournament. Early is a tremendous player and I agree foul trouble for Van vleet changed the outcome.

As far as KU, I would have benched Tharpe about 10 games ago. Mason needs to be on the court. Bill is going to have to change is offense, it is just to old school. Needs to recruit guards with some size and that can shoot the 3. Also needs to bring more pressure and to mix it up with some zone. Not one of Bill's best coaching jobs. I look at it like this, Vanvleet Early and Baker could have all been starters for KU. Wiggins and Embiid could have started for Wichita State. The Shockers overall had better players.
 
Don't you think that experience has a lot to do with that though?

I think as they are now Vanvleet is a much, much better player than Wiggins.
 
duckn66 said:
Don't you think that experience has a lot to do with that though?

I think as they are now Vanvleet is a much, much better player than Wiggins.
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Experience has everything to do with it. I disagree that WSU has more talent than KU. They played better this year for sure, but Wiggins is a barely 19 year old kid. He is one of the most athletic kids I have ever seen. When he was on, it was apparent to me he was better than anyone else in the gym. Problem was with different defenses and schemes he was lost at times. That comes with experience. Early and Vanvleet are good players that would probably start on any team in basketball. Early is a senior, nobody would be able to guard Wiggins as a senior. Ellis is the same. There were times he was phenomenal this year. Problem is Seldon, Ellis, and Wiggins are all really understated. They don't realize how good they can be. When Embid was in there they had some energy. Self is a defensive minded coach. His offense feeds off the defense. It is hard to get a young team to do that. Wiggins was a great defender this year simply because he was more athletic than anyone else. WSU had a good year, but I still think they are no better than third in the big 12. They were beat by a painfully average, underachieving, talented, young Kentucky team. Kentucky's size and athleticisim were enough to win.
 
Did not mean to imply that WSU was more athletic but that they had 3 players that would have started for KU. Deep into the roster KU has more talent. My assessment of Wiggins weakness: Poor ball handling skills, weak hands, can't finish when challenged. Why because he has gotten by on athleticism against weak competition. I would choose Julius Randall number in the draft. He is a man among boys and will instantly start in the NBA and be a 10 point 12 board guy. Never going to be a star but will have a long career in the NBA. We will never know if Wiggins could be guarded as a senior and I am skeptical about him as a pro.

I disagree that Bill's offense feeds off of his defense. He is a defensive minded coach in that he wants to get stops, finish with a rebound, then pound it inside in the half court. Much different than that of Shaka Smart or Rick Pitino who want to press you and convert in transition. Bill does not coach an up and down game, if he did he would recruit athletic shooters. Right now we have 3 smallish point guards.

I am concerned in that the game has drastically changed in the last 5 years. You have to press and shoot 3's. Not that you can't win with a different style but Bill is going to have to mix it up defensively between man and zone and pick spots to press. Or we will continue to win the Big 12 conference and be a sweet 16 candidate. Which is much different than the philosophy of Pitino and Donovan. I love KU basketball but I don't think this team played to its potential nor did Bill figure out how to get them into a grove. It is more than just changing a line up. It is making adjustments and he just did not do it. It would not surprise me if Mason transfers. He could be a starter for a lot of teams.
 
duckn66 said:
Don't you think that experience has a lot to do with that though?

I think as they are now Vanvleet is a much, much better player than Wiggins.
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That's what happens when you recruit the one and done athlete. Would you rather have 3 5 star athletes and fill in the gaps or have 5 4 star athletes that will stay for 4 years?
 
westksbowhunter said:
Did not mean to imply that WSU was more athletic but that they had 3 players that would have started for KU. Deep into the roster KU has more talent. My assessment of Wiggins weakness: Poor ball handling skills, weak hands, can't finish when challenged. Why because he has gotten by on athleticism against weak competition. I would choose Julius Randall number in the draft. He is a man among boys and will instantly start in the NBA and be a 10 point 12 board guy. Never going to be a star but will have a long career in the NBA. We will never know if Wiggins could be guarded as a senior and I am skeptical about him as a pro.

I disagree that Bill's offense feeds off of his defense. He is a defensive minded coach in that he wants to get stops, finish with a rebound, then pound it inside in the half court. Much different than that of Shaka Smart or Rick Pitino who want to press you and convert in transition. Bill does not coach an up and down game, if he did he would recruit athletic shooters. Right now we have 3 smallish point guards.

I am concerned in that the game has drastically changed in the last 5 years. You have to press and shoot 3's. Not that you can't win with a different style but Bill is going to have to mix it up defensively between man and zone and pick spots to press. Or we will continue to win the Big 12 conference and be a sweet 16 candidate. Which is much different than the philosophy of Pitino and Donovan. I love KU basketball but I don't think this team played to its potential nor did Bill figure out how to get them into a grove. It is more than just changing a line up. It is making adjustments and he just did not do it. It would not surprise me if Mason transfers. He could be a starter for a lot of teams.
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The reason KU floundered this year IMO is Tharpe. He had times when he looked like an all- american followed by strings of games where he looked like he would ride the bench at a community college. I don't know what to make of Mason. I think if he would have started from the beginning we would have been no worse off. In fact I think there is a chance we would have been better. Tharpe wants to make ESPN highlight plays on every possession. As far as Self goes, I think his downfall is not adapting to his team. I think Brannen Green should have seen the floor more. A 6-8 guard with a nice stroke. I will be suprised if he is here next year. He got in self's doghouse and never really got out. Self's biggest failure is falling in love with some of his players. He puts them in the starting lineup and won't take them out. That said I would still take Self over any coach out there.
 
Great team WSU!

Hello from a UK fan that was very impressed with your team!

It was a great game and a instant classic! Early, Vanfleet and Baker are amazing players and could play for any team....coach is a class act and deserved the coach of the year!

I wish the game had been in the final four.....because that's where WSU belongs!

Go Cats

HB68
 
HighBrass68 said:
Hello from a UK fan that was very impressed with your team!

It was a great game and a instant classic! Early, Vanfleet and Baker are amazing players and could play for any team....coach is a class act and deserved the coach of the year!

I wish the game had been in the final four.....because that's where WSU belongs!

Go Cats

HB68
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I agree, that was a championship game played at a high level. Simply amazing basketball. There were no losers. Coach Marshall is as good as it gets.
 
carptom1 said:
The reason KU floundered this year IMO is Tharpe. He had times when he looked like an all- american followed by strings of games where he looked like he would ride the bench at a community college. I don't know what to make of Mason. I think if he would have started from the beginning we would have been no worse off. In fact I think there is a chance we would have been better. Tharpe wants to make ESPN highlight plays on every possession. As far as Self goes, I think his downfall is not adapting to his team. I think Brannen Green should have seen the floor more. A 6-8 guard with a nice stroke. I will be suprised if he is here next year. He got in self's doghouse and never really got out. Self's biggest failure is falling in love with some of his players. He puts them in the starting lineup and won't take them out. That said I would still take Self over any coach out there.
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You could definitely see and feel the tension in the players. Not a cohesive group. It is a shame how the media, Fran Fracilla in particular, can not talk about KU as a team. Always about how the draft will go with Wiggins and Embiid. What Jayhawk fan really gives a damn about there draft stock? Tharpe simply is a back up point guard. But quite frankly, I felt like Bill killed his confidence. You could see the frustration with Mason not getting court time. I really feel we will have a few transfer. Seems to be a common occurrence amongst college athletes now.

Green had a great game, I think against WV. Then simply just never saw the court again. One thing Bill did this year more than in the past is to yank players instantly after a mistake. You just can not coach this way, it won't work. I am speaking from being a head coach at the high school for over 20 years. With a young team you have to show confidence as they are going to make mistakes. But when you instantly yank them, their fear keeps them from making plays. Exactly the reason we were an indecisive team at the end of the year. The last 10 games were embarrassing.
 
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