Dogs First Hunting Season Question

example

that guy on the forum that run's setters: his number one mutt, tango, or something, goes on point at about 618 1/2 yards and it happens to be a pheasant, the dumb one's he shot the day before so this is a smart one. on this day, the guy leaves his four wheeler home and has to actually walk the 1/3 mile to get to the mutt on point. he was lucky to be able to train his dog to stay put till he finally got to the dog to either flush or release the bird, that's assuming he could find the mutt. by this time the smart ol' rooster got bored with tango and snuck off and so much time has passed the poor dog probably forgot what he was standing there for. at this point, upon a quick refresher course, the dog is released and it would them be pure luck that he could locate the bird again and at a distance of less than 618 1/2 yards and here we go again. the dog should be trained to hold a short period of time but when the bells go off that the bird has moved, to re-locate on its own hoping to crowd the bird enough to make it sit again and maybe just maybe the owner picked up the pace and got there quicker. lot of hope there but then it is hunting. it goes back to what someone once said, TRUST THE DOG

cheers
 
I don't care whether you hunt ducks, pheasants, quail, grouse, dove, etc. Or even if the dog is a just a pet, the dog needs 6-8 weeks of basic obedience training. Even if the dog is never going to hunt, I don't know how anyone could enjoy a dog with knowing basic obedience command. For a pointing dog, that would include whoa breaking. Now you can inforce something that the dog already knows.


Get C.A. Johnson's book "Here, Whoa, Dead Bird". It will give you the foundation to enjoy a great gundog.

I got to ask, how does the dog coming into heat wreck and entire hunting season? It never effected mine in the least.
 
heat

that's a long time to keep a dog out of the field. it is quite a distraction for any male dogs around and there are some serious theories around about a dog in heat and packs of wolfs and yotes. it is no reason to lose a season. anyway, after about 40 or so years of bird dogs, you do have to socialize a dog whether is be a pet or a hunting companion but in all those years I have had some good one's, never taught the word whoa. don't actually much believe in it, might give you something to do but for the dog it is not really necessary, maybe a help for a competition dog, surely not for a fine hunting companion which most of us would love to have. trainers love the concept as it give them something to do and charge for, the owner will be impressed and more likely to come back for more. that's all. they have to prove their worth but it is not necessary. with a well socialized dog and plenty of time in the field finding birds is all ya need, the dog will train itself and if the dog is a dud, you can't train it anyway, just beat your head against the wall or something.

cheers

cheers
 
mustistuff said:
that's a long time to keep a dog out of the field. it is quite a distraction for any male dogs around and there are some serious theories around about a dog in heat and packs of wolfs and yotes. it is no reason to lose a season. anyway, after about 40 or so years of bird dogs, you do have to socialize a dog whether is be a pet or a hunting companion but in all those years I have had some good one's, never taught the word whoa. don't actually much believe in it, might give you something to do but for the dog it is not really necessary, maybe a help for a competition dog, surely not for a fine hunting companion which most of us would love to have. trainers love the concept as it give them something to do and charge for, the owner will be impressed and more likely to come back for more. that's all. they have to prove their worth but it is not necessary. with a well socialized dog and plenty of time in the field finding birds is all ya need, the dog will train itself and if the dog is a dud, you can't train it anyway, just beat your head against the wall or something.

cheers

cheers
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I would bet that most hunters who do not teach their dog to "Whoa" actually give the command to their dog in the field. So why not teach it? To me it is also part of the socialization process of spending time with your young pup and teaching it what it can and can not do and what is expected of it. From crate training to obedience to field training and then an actual hunting scenario.
 
I would really recommend reading C.A.'s book if you can find a copy. He really laid the foundation for those who hunt behind English setters.
 
mustistuff said:
that guy on the forum that run's setters: his number one mutt, tango, or something, goes on point at about 618 1/2 yards and it happens to be a pheasant, the dumb one's he shot the day before so this is a smart one. on this day, the guy leaves his four wheeler home and has to actually walk the 1/3 mile to get to the mutt on point. he was lucky to be able to train his dog to stay put till he finally got to the dog to either flush or release the bird, that's assuming he could find the mutt. by this time the smart ol' rooster got bored with tango and snuck off and so much time has passed the poor dog probably forgot what he was standing there for. at this point, upon a quick refresher course, the dog is released and it would them be pure luck that he could locate the bird again and at a distance of less than 618 1/2 yards and here we go again. the dog should be trained to hold a short period of time but when the bells go off that the bird has moved, to re-locate on its own hoping to crowd the bird enough to make it sit again and maybe just maybe the owner picked up the pace and got there quicker. lot of hope there but then it is hunting. it goes back to what someone once said, TRUST THE DOG

cheers
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LMAO!! :cheers:
 
Frangler said:
I love it when a dog does that. It takes a pointing a dog a lot of exposure to develop that skill.
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At that time Gus was in his sixth season and had over 100 days afield on wild pheasants and some quail.
 
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to not beleave in whoa or teaching a dog to do so is not something i would recomend? it can save ur dogs life what if its chase n a bird someplace it should not be near a road sharp debrey that can cut ur dog up or maybe a trap line etc.? chase n low flying wounded birds also if with other hunters ill whoa her dont need my dog shot by somebody better safe then sorry... also if u get a cluster flush or birds ur dog may want to chase whoa helps there also...

guys say u dont need whoa or heel to kill birds that true most the time but if i see a bunch of birds go land and they did not see me or my dog ill heel her up and get to wear the birds landed asap i dont need my dog running willd on our way to them birds or while jump shooting ducks etc.

read a good article it basicly said if u have a pack of good hunting dogs u dint have to train ur dog to much just let it hunt with the other finished dogs and they will learn like ben o williams say. but if u dont have a pack of dogs to teach ur dog STOP BEING LAZY and train ur dog to heel whoa come sit stay kennel up most dogs need a lil help with these things...

but i do see and hear alot of lazy dog owners say you dont need this or that but what does d it hurt to train ur dog???

i do agree alot of dog owners arr highly judgemental im not agreeing with them musti i just like a dog that listens and i like to have my dog be able to do blind retrieves so she has to listen up i feel... as long as u and ur dogs have fun thats what counts...
 
There just isn't enough wild birds to keep a dog entertained these days where a dog can learn on its own. Back in the 70's and early 80's you could take a young dog out and get them into 10-12 coveys a day. They could actually learn on there own how to handle birds. The only problem with breaking a dog that way is that the dog learns to hunt for themselves and not for you. But who is going to find 12 coveys a day now?

Most people who don't believe in "whoa breaking" or "force fetching" generally lack the ability to teach it to their dog or just don't train much. So not doing it is a crutch. Not all but I believe this true in a lot of cases.

Basic obedience, including Whoa training for pointing dogs, is the foundation for training a dog. It is the basis for teaching a dog to back and honor. Without you have nothing to fall back on with things go bad and the blame should be on the owner and not the dog. A dog that does not obey basic obedience commands such as here, sit, stay, heel, and do the commands to a whistle is an untrained dog with a lazy or uniformed owner. Most people confuse backing with a dog that likes to co point or steal the point all together. Unless the dog is a genius it won't back without knowing the whoa command.
 
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last two post

on the first post, the guy truly does not "trust the dog" read the 2nd paragraph. some training and obedience is necessary of course, but the whoa board is not one of them, if you like it, do it. the dog does need some manners to be a great hunting companion but if you socialize the dog it will hunt to please you.

the second post : a couple points here are force fetching might be required in some situation but for a great hunting companion it is usually done cause the owner dropped the ball himself, not the dog. dogs hunt for themselves cause of the lack of socialization: ie: poor relationship with the owner or trainer. it is absolutely ludicrous to thing a dog won't honor a point without knowing the whoa command. for the most part a dog will honor not cause it is being a nice dog, it is really hoping that on the flush it will get to make the retrieve before the other dog gets to it. kinda like this is buddies to the end and this is it. one point you might be right on is that most owner's don't. can't or don't really know how to think like a dog, therefore they drop the ball, if the dog has access to enough birds they will learn regardless of their owner. read dave dufffy on that. the scarcity of birds that we have today is a at most two year problem so don't use that for a dogs bad behavior.

cheers
 
mustistuff said:
on the first post, the guy truly does not "trust the dog" read the 2nd paragraph. some training and obedience is necessary of course, but the whoa board is not one of them, if you like it, do it. the dog does need some manners to be a great hunting companion but if you socialize the dog it will hunt to please you.


cheers
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i guess i did forget to mention after i get my heeled dog near wear the birds land or were last seen i let her hunt em up not stay on heel till i shoot the birds ... i just dont need my dog off looking for birds when i seen wear the landed etc. and when jumping shooting ducks u dont need ur dog off looking for birds u need them next to u same as in hotel parking lots etc. heel is a great thing to teach a dog... yelling get down and sit reapetedly is not socializing ur dog many people think it is??? i want my dog to listen up periode not when it wants if i can help it... never had to use a whoa board or barrel my dog understood whoa means stop moving now....
 
mustistuff said:
on the first post, the guy truly does not "trust the dog" read the 2nd paragraph. some training and obedience is necessary of course, but the whoa board is not one of them, if you like it, do it. the dog does need some manners to be a great hunting companion but if you socialize the dog it will hunt to please you.

the second post : a couple points here are force fetching might be required in some situation but for a great hunting companion it is usually done cause the owner dropped the ball himself, not the dog. dogs hunt for themselves cause of the lack of socialization: ie: poor relationship with the owner or trainer. it is absolutely ludicrous to thing a dog won't honor a point without knowing the whoa command. for the most part a dog will honor not cause it is being a nice dog, it is really hoping that on the flush it will get to make the retrieve before the other dog gets to it. kinda like this is buddies to the end and this is it. one point you might be right on is that most owner's don't. can't or don't really know how to think like a dog, therefore they drop the ball, if the dog has access to enough birds they will learn regardless of their owner. read dave dufffy on that. the scarcity of birds that we have today is a at most two year problem so don't use that for a dogs bad behavior.

cheers
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If you think scarcity of birds is a 2 year problem you are living in never never land. I don't think force fetching is necessary at all for pointing dogs. Just using that term in general. However it is very important for retrieving dogs if you want the dog to handle well. Don't confuse backing with co pointing. The 2 are different. I have hunted with a lot of guys who thought their dogs knew how to back.
 
pointing or flushing breed if you want a pheasant dog it better retrieve in times wear like u guys mention birds are scarece or not all over in good numbers if u wing a bird or nick 1 ur dog has got to be able to bring the runner back to you...

not nearly as importent on quail or forest grouse they are weak a few pellets they go down and stay down pheasants run run run wounded birds rarely just lay there and give up to the dog...
 
1) Patience

2) avoid hunting in larger groups of people

3) avoid hunting with other dogs (especially if the dog is not familiar with them).
 
young dogs

1) patience correct, that doesn't mean lazy however, dog ain't gonna get there if you don't run it

2) I have always thought it really poor judgment to run any dog in a large group esp. a young. if you have an ol' timer that's been there and back, maybe ok. the dog is likely to get nothing but confused and you will lose control, also the dog will spend more time trying to sort you out than hunting.

3) don't ever assume that running a young dog with an older dog is a great way for the younger to learn. it might be just the old dog's bad habits it picks up. the more important reason not to run a young dog, at least very much, is that the younger dog will lose it's independence and you don't want that. do your own work

cheers
 
gjw said:
Thanks Steve for the good advise. I live in ND so no wild quail. I'll look around and see if I can find some pigeons or a trainer that may have some. I appreciate your thoughts...as I said I'll give it a try.

Thanks!

Greg
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Greg, you have almost the next best thing to Quail in NoDak and that is young of the year Sharptail grouse. Young of the year Sharpies are great for young pointing dogs. September is the month to get after them as that time of the year they are usually in small family groups and will usually hold nice for points. You may have to wear off some boot leather to find them in the wide open prairie, but once you do it can be exciting to say the least as they rarely flush altogether as a group, but rather 1 or two at a time. The western half of the state is the main sharpie range with the western third of the state in the thick of their range.

Just don't shoot any birds that flush as the direct result of the dog pressuring/bumping them.
 
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