Dog Food

Is there any truth to be told about a dog that cant gain any weight and looks to skinny, even though the vet says is healthy...not getting the right food. I have said that I feed my dogs Pro Plan, but my oldest GSP does not gain weight at all. SHe has always been small, but seeing some of the conversation on here, it makes me wonder if the food is just "passing through" and whether or not she is getting the right amount of nutrients, etc.

Thoughts?
 
Old wives tales about dry dog foods high in protein causing kidney disease run rampant both on and off the internet and many people deprive their dogs of what they crave most for fear of damaging their health.

Unfortunately the whole protein thing is not easily explained in just a few sentences, so bear with me if I ramble on for a while. I'll try to keep it as simple and straightforward as possible without going too much into scientific terms.

First of all, it is important that we understand that protein isn't only a nutrient - the amino acids it is made up of (think lego bricks forming a bigger structure) also serve as building blocks for body tissues, organs, enzymes, hormones, antibodies and so on - roughly half of the dry body mass of a dog consists of protein. Knowing this it is easy to understand that growing puppies need protein to build above mentioned body tissues, organs, enzymes, hormones, antibodies and both adults and growing puppies constantly need to replace and rebuild these as well. The body recycles amino acids to some extent, but part of them need to be replaced, just like you can't endlessly recycle paper or plastic.

Protein is processed in the liver and any waste materials are filtered and excreted by the kidneys. High quality protein does not generate large amounts of waste that needs to be removed from the body, but poor quality protein which is difficult to digest does and thus puts stress on the kidneys. The liver needs water to process protein and as a medium to carry waste products to the kidneys, where they are filtered out and most of the water is reabsorbed. The less concentrated the waste products in this primary filtrate are, the easier it is for the kidneys to do their filtering work - that's why it is unhealthy to feed dry food only and so critical that dogs eating mostly or exclusively dry food and dogs with liver disease get lots of extra water. Dogs who eat mostly canned food or a home prepared diet automatically take in more moisture and do not need to compensate as much by drinking. Contrary to what many people think and pet food companies claim, dogs (and cats) do not know instinctively how much extra water they have to drink to make up for what is lacking in the dry food. This is why I so highly recommend that people always add water to the kibble at feeding time.

Now that we have the basics laid out, we can return to the protein in the food. Many people cite old, outdated research that claims high protein percentages in the food are harmful to dogs and do all kinds of damage, especially to the liver. Fact is that these studies were conducted by feeding dogs foods that were made from poor quality, hard to digest protein sources, such as soy, corn, byproducts, blood meal and so on. From my explanation above, you now already know that it is a question of protein quality that affects the kidneys. Consider a wolf in the wild, who will eat relatively little else but meat if they can help it - these animals don't get kidney diseases on the same scale domestic dogs do. Their protein comes in the form of quality muscle and organ meat though, not processed leftovers from human food processing. It also contains around 70% moisture, whereas most commercial dry foods contain a maximum of 10%. Dogs and other "dog like" animals (canids) evolved eating a diet that consists primarily of meat, fat and bones, which they have been eating for hundreds of thousands of years. Commercial foods, especially dry food, has only been widely available for the past 60 years and we are still learning how much damage certain aspects of it can do. Things have improved quite a bit from hitting rock bottom in the 70s and 80s, but the majority of pet food manufacturers still produce bad foods from poor quality ingredients.

Just to digress for a moment, when I went to the grocery storeyesterday, I saw that Purina Dog Chow was on sale, $8 for a 22 pound bag. That's a little over 36 cents per pound, including the profit the supermarket makes on it, cost for the pretty, colorful packaging, advertising and all. On top of that, of course the manufacturer (Nestle/Purina) wants to make a profit too. How much do you think the food actually costs them just to make, without any profits? The answer is pennies per pound, which also reflects the ingredient quality. If I calculate a 40% profit margin for each the supermarket and the manufacturer, it comes to about 13 cents per pound. That's $260 per ton of food. Yikes.

Anyway, back to the protein. Protein in dog food can come from either plant or meat sources. Logically, plant sources are cheaper, especially considering that corn gluten meal, the most popular, cheap protein booster, is a byproduct of the human food processing industry, left over from making corn starch and corn syrup. It has a crude protein content of 60%, so theoretically even if your food recipe contained no other protein sources at all, you could make a food with a 20% crude protein content by mixing it 1:2 with some cheap carb source.

It is critical to stress that the term "crude protein" is used in the guaranteed analysis, which means there is no statement whatsoever as to its digestibility. Protein comes in many forms, even shoe leather, chicken feathers or cow hooves have a fairly high crude protein content, but the body is only able to extract and process very little of it, at the price of a lot of work and stress to do so.

Due to this labeling issue (only one of many, many others), the percentage of protein in a food by itself doesn't say anything at all. Ingredient lists are not 100% straightforward and truthful either, but at least you can somewhat gauge if there's even any quality protein in there at all.

Just to illustrate once again by example, let's say we have two foods which have the same percentages of protein, fat, carbohydrates, fiber and moisture. Food A contains 25% protein that is 60% digestible and food B contains 25% protein that is 85% digestible. That means of food A the body is able to utilize 15% of the protein content, but of food B 21.25%. Logically, to meet the body's requirement of protein, you'd have to feed more of food A than of food B, and the body of the dog eating food B will have to work less to utilize it.
I guess in really simple terms you can compare it to the engine of a car and the type of fuel you use. Just because you use high octane gas in a car that doesn't need it, it's not going to do any damage, but if you use poor quality fuel, regardless whether it is high or low octane, there will be buildup in the engine that hampers performance and will eventually lead to damage.

So because the dog has to work less to utilize the food, they generate better health? Because the kidney's dont have to work as hard to generate the waste?

Am I reading this correctly?

What type of dry food would you recommend?
 
Birdman,

You said yourself that your older dog ate Pro Plan all those years and lived a relatively healthy life. Do you honestly think another brand of food would have increased his quality of life or allowed him to live any longer?


While I'm not going to sit here and trash anyone's idea of what is the best food in their mind. Everyone is free to feed what they wish. But the reality is there IS no ONE BRAND or feed that is best for all dogs. If there was wouldn't you think everyone would be feeding it?

Say what you want about this ingredient or that ingredient. Most Premium feeds are formulated to give our dogs a balanced healthy diet. There are certainly the few that will have an issue with certain ingredients, but by and large most will do fine. If your dog food provides good energy, lean muscle, good coat condition, stools good and consistent and overall general health is good, what more could you possibly ask for?

Sounds like your old dog was eating a feed that certainly agreed with him as he lived a long and prosperous life.
 
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Is there any truth to be told about a dog that cant gain any weight and looks to skinny, even though the vet says is healthy...not getting the right food. I have said that I feed my dogs Pro Plan, but my oldest GSP does not gain weight at all. SHe has always been small, but seeing some of the conversation on here, it makes me wonder if the food is just "passing through" and whether or not she is getting the right amount of nutrients, etc.

Thoughts?

When you say too skinny, what does that mean to you? Shorthairs are lean and athletic looking and to the average onlooker who is not familiar with the breed some may think they are under fed. I've had people ask me that. I myself have a hard keeper who I keep on a high calorie feed year round. if your cleaning up alot in the back yard you might be right. You might try something else or maybe try a product like Prozyme which is a digestive enzyme supplement.

What is her bodyshape like? Have any pics?

IF the vet says your dog is healthy than I probably woudn't worry too much. I am a big believer in feeding to a certain body shape. I like to see a hint of the last few ribs and feed according to that. If i find that I have to feed more than 4 cups/day to achieve this, then I look for a higher calorie food.

FWIW
 
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You're right, I really had no quarrel with Pro Plan. And I may have been snookered by all the marketing bs regarding ingredients. My vet recommends giving hunting dogs frozen raw hamburger balls for snacks. And he says make sure you buy the cheapest hamburger with the highest fat content. Then he has us freeze it in golf ball size snacks. My dog loves em.

I also have always fed my dogs all my chicken bones. I wash off the bbq sauce or whatever, and then give them the breast and leg bones whole. They chomp that stuff down like it was doggie caviar!

I read one place where this guy gives his dog a raw chicken thigh and leg twice a day, along with some frozen green beans and carrots for snacks!

Who knows? That's why I wouldn't criticize Pro Plan or any other premium dog food aimed at high performance dogs.

So, that's the rest of my 3 cents!
 
Dogs Will Voluntarily Eat Corn

yeah but if you look at the ingred. in those "tryed and true" dog foods almost always the #2 or close too have corn in it. and we all know corn is not very good for dogs. they cant digest it and can be harmful.

Friends' farm dogs eat field corn voluntarily, from the field.
 
When you say too skinny, what does that mean to you? Shorthairs are lean and athletic looking and to the average onlooker who is not familiar with the breed some may think they are under fed. I've had people ask me that. I myself have a hard keeper who I keep on a high calorie feed year round. if your cleaning up alot in the back yard you might be right. You might try something else or maybe try a product like Prozyme which is a digestive enzyme supplement.

What is her bodyshape like? Have any pics?

IF the vet says your dog is healthy than I probably woudn't worry too much. I am a big believer in feeding to body shape. I like to see a hint of the last couple ribs and feed according to that. If i find that I have to feed more than 4 cups/day to achieve this, then I look for a higher calorie food.

FWIW

What high calorie food are you using? I do clean up a lot of "poo" in the backyard and this is why I think that the food isnt working. She weighs 32 pounds and you can see her hip bones on her back, but like you say, you can only see a hint of the last two ribs. She might just be a skinny dog, but sometimes it worries me. She eats about 4 cups a day.

She just doesnt keep the weight on for whatever reason. Energy level is great, just a lot of poo in the backyard (from both dogs) who both eat Pro Plan.

I ask all these questions because I am thinking about changing the food, but if I dont need to I wont.
 
Went and Googled Prozyme and it sounds like it has worked for numerous problems, including weight. It sounds like it works both ways with the weight problem.

The other thing I read about it is it controls poo eating. My oldest does eat her stool often (how many times I dont know about it though) and Prozyme will help destroy that habit as well.

I think I may give it a try to see if she doesnt put on any weight. I have pictures, but I dont know how to post them?
 
Friends' farm dogs eat field corn voluntarily, from the field.
Ha, OH did I laugh when I thought of what I am gona say, Have you seen what they will voluntarily eat. Bird dodo, dog dodo,cat dodo,dead dodo of all sorts, dead fish, whatever out of the garbage, sniff and lick places we wouldn't, well some might. And then we let them lick us in the face. GROSE.:D
 
Went and Googled Prozyme and it sounds like it has worked for numerous problems, including weight. It sounds like it works both ways with the weight problem.

The other thing I read about it is it controls poo eating. My oldest does eat her stool often (how many times I dont know about it though) and Prozyme will help destroy that habit as well.

I think I may give it a try to see if she doesnt put on any weight. I have pictures, but I dont know how to post them?
DC you may just have to switch to a food thats works for that dog. I have had to. Is she on wormer? Have you taken her stool in to see if she has any worms? That is how they get many types of worms, by eating poo or from the ground where poo was. Some wormer does not kill tape worm ect. so a stool sample test is a great tool to see if that is a problem. If you are feeding 4 cups of proplan to a 32 Lb dog and she is too thin there is something going on. I would request a stool test and maybe check with a different vet for a second opinion on weather she seems fine or not. That is quite a bit of proplan.
 
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Does anyone in here give scrap bones from the table to their dogs? What kinds? Would a pork chop bone be bad?
 
As far as I'm concerned there are no good table bones for a dog. They can create more problems than any possible good. Any bone that can splinter is especially bad. My step-son fed his Brittany a ham bone and all the splinters plugged him up. The vet litterally had to pull the slivers out of his butt. Feed them a good dog food and forget the bones.
 
If you are feeding 4 cups of proplan to a 32 Lb dog and she is too thin there is something going on.

It's a fair amount of food, but it is not the performance formula she's eating. I agree if she has not had a fecal float (worm check) recently, I would start there.

Still waiting for those pics DCup???
 
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I give my lab these flat rawhide bones, she does kind of chokes on them sometimes, so I really watch her. She loves bones, but finding the right ones for her is hard to do. Either there too expensive or dangerous. No bones from the table at all.....

She really likes the knuckle bones, etc. from Fleet farm also.
 
Rawhides are one thing, bones from table scraps are another. Never give any actual bones (beef, pork or chicken). I give my dogs some rawhide bones occasionally. But the rawhide isn't acutally a bone. I do watch for then they get it chewed down to a small piece and take it away as I've had them choke on it.
 
Raw bones are better IMO than cooked. With cooking the bones can become brittle and splinter. I like to give a good raw knuckle bone from the butcher, especially the larger ones. They will clean the meat off and then lose interest. You still want to supervise regardless of what you give them though.
 
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