Does "speed" kill...

A5 -- To answer your question, I don't formally measure POA/POI differences but I do make a mental note of them (particularly if I'm shooting a new gun) to see if I have any POI issues. The majority of my patterning has been done with the same few guns I've had for quite a while, so I'm not concerned about them not shooting to POA.

A little info about my patterning method... I use a post-shot scribed 30" circle since it is the industry standard to evaluate a gun/load/choke combo’s performance. In this patterning, I'm not trying to measure my ability to center a pattern in a pre-drawn 30-inch circle, I'm trying to evaluate my equipment and ammo!

I shoot at the center of blank 48" x 48" sheets of white paper. These large paper sheets make it easier to capture the workable pattern (even at longer distances) and they allow me to shoot patterns standing, off-hand, which tends to reduce felt recoil. If you do any pattern work, you know how shotguns kick harder when you're patterning!!!

Shotguns don’t always shoot to the same POI each and every shot, even if they are shot from a bench. That’s why you scribe the 30-inch diameter circle encompassing the densest portion of the pattern spread after you shoot the pattern, not before. Now, you may get some indications of possible POA/POI issues while doing this pattern testing, but you can address those later.

Just don’t confuse the patterning method I describe above with checking your gun’s POA/POI, in that exercise, you are checking to see if your gun shoots where you look/point, mostly a gun fit issue.

One exception is when I'm patterning turkey loads/chokes. I attach a turkey head/neck target to the center of the 48" x 48" sheets (for an aim point, since we aim at turkeys) and I sit on the ground and hold the gun while resting my arms on my knees, like I would when hunting.

Hope this helps, good luck!
 
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Joe, Thanks for the info. I totally understand the theory, but back when I was a post-shot scribed circle guy, I still put a dot in the center of the paper just for something to point at. I thought maybe you did something similar & had data indicating how far from that point the "center" of the pattern was on average. The reason I became a pre-shot circle guy is because I started chrono-ing my loads at the same time I pattern them. Sitting at a bench & aiming at a dot on the paper (circle drawn too), while shooting through my chronograph, hoping it doesn't get destroyed. Didn't take long to start putting a sand bag on my shoulder to deaden the push & spread out the force a little. Those goose loads were murder. Anyway, I came across loads whose densest portion of pattern was nowhere near where I pointed/aimed. They got tossed out immediately.
 
OK, I probably should have done something like that but just didn't think about it. Regardless if one is using a post- or pre-drawn circle, patterning to confirm performance is the most important thing!

I may not use a dot but I do trying to center the pattern on the paper. Other than the occasional flinch, usually after a long pattern session, most are pretty much centered. When shooting turkey patterns, with the head target for an aim point, I figure I'm doing something wrong (me or gun) if I can't put the 20" core pattern on the turkey head target.

I too have used a bean bag or Past recoil pad between me and gun to reduce the "push", particularly with 12ga 3" and 3.5" turkey loads!!! I think I'm done patterning them!

Good luck!
 
A friend like to say "Speed sells and shot kills". I will take steel shot at 1300-1400 anytime, any day.
 
The last couple of seasons I’ve been shooting some of the slower stuff. In my 12ga some polymag 4s at around 1100 ft and some Federal Heavyweight 7s out of my 20ga. at about 1100ft. I just haven’t had any trouble killing birds if I puke it out ahead of them. Second shots are easier, and my crowns stay in place. I shot some much hotter stuff a while back, and just didn’t notice any advantage. I think the fastest stuff I shoot now is Kent Bismuth with my 12ga. I don’t know, seems like the lower recoil stuff is just a little less dramatic. I’m getting older tho, 61 last Friday. Everything just takes longer I guess. Haha
 
mgorvi said:
The last couple of seasons I’ve been shooting some of the slower stuff. In my 12ga some polymag 4s at around 1100 ft and some Federal Heavyweight 7s out of my 20ga. at about 1100ft. I just haven’t had any trouble killing birds if I puke it out ahead of them.
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I, personally, would consider those something like "double magnum" pheasant loads even though they're slower & one's a 20 ga. I suspect they'd both be 1.5 oz. loads. With lead 4's & TSS 7's (ballistically similar to lead 2's or 3's at pheasant ranges), you've got some really snotty loads there.
 
I feel the need for speed

A5 Sweet 16 said:
I, personally, would consider those something like "double magnum" pheasant loads even though they're slower & one's a 20 ga. I suspect they'd both be 1.5 oz. loads. With lead 4's & TSS 7's (ballistically similar to lead 2's or 3's at pheasant ranges), you've got some really snotty loads there.
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Ya, I guess they are pretty beefy, but recoil with them seems really easy, especially the Fed. Heavyweight. Those are 2 3/4-11/8 oz loads out of my 20ga. I had to try some of the poly wad stuff just because. They are 2 3/4 as well but 1.5 of #4s, but surprisingly soft. I’ve been gravitating to 4s more and more for some reason. Kent loads up a 23/4 she’ll with 1.5 oz of 4s but they are 1475fps and they were pretty harsh so one box was enough. I have never shot steel. When I shoot lead with my 20ga I shoot Federals. 3” 1 5/16 5s on the bottom and the same shell in 4s in the top, IC/Skeet 2 in Oct and Skeet 2/Mod during the late season. That combination patterns well and is tolerable. Last year in my 12ga I used polymag IC early and skeet 2 late. I have never just settled into one brand, one size shot, one velocity, one favorite shell. Nothing more fun than trying different stuff, for me anyway. I have been doing that with guns too, much to the dismay of my better half. Ha
 
mgorvi said:
Ya, I guess they are pretty beefy, but recoil with them seems really easy, especially the Fed. Heavyweight. Those are 2 3/4-11/8 oz loads out of my 20ga. I had to try some of the poly wad stuff just because. They are 2 3/4 as well but 1.5 of #4s, but surprisingly soft. I’ve been gravitating to 4s more and more for some reason. Kent loads up a 23/4 she’ll with 1.5 oz of 4s but they are 1475fps and they were pretty harsh so one box was enough. I have never shot steel. When I shoot lead with my 20ga I shoot Federals. 3” 1 5/16 5s on the bottom and the same shell in 4s in the top, IC/Skeet 2 in Oct and Skeet 2/Mod during the late season. That combination patterns well and is tolerable. Last year in my 12ga I used polymag IC early and skeet 2 late. I have never just settled into one brand, one size shot, one velocity, one favorite shell. Nothing more fun than trying different stuff, for me anyway. I have been doing that with guns too, much to the dismay of my better half. Ha
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Is this what your shooting? https://polywad.com/polymag

Nickel plated Italian lead shot @ $18.00/box, not bad. I can see why you don't complain about the recoil too much as they're only running 8400 psi. That 1.5 oz load size is actually not a bad idea when using #4's as it sweetens the pattern almost but not quite equal to 1 1/4 oz of #5's, which is my favorite Pheasant recipe.

I am curious though as to why they don't offer it in say a 36gr. (1 1/4oz) #5. :confused:
 
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Polymag

birdshooter said:
Is this what your shooting? https://polywad.com/polymag

Nickel plated Italian lead shot @ $18.00/box, not bad. I can see why you don't complain about the recoil too much as they're only running 8400 psi. That 1.5 oz load size is actually not a bad idea when using #4's as it sweetens the pattern almost but not quite equal to 1 1/4 oz of #5's, which is my favorite Pheasant recipe.

I am curious though as to why they don't offer it in say a 36gr. (1 1/4oz) #5. :confused:
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Yup, that’s the stuff. I found ten boxes online at a place that was discontinuing them. I think they were just a hair over half price. I most likely wouldn’t have bought them otherwise. I wanted to get my pellet count closer to 200, and with 4s it takes about 1.5oz to do that. That load seemed to fold them pretty well if I got it out in front. My 12 ga. auto loader is gas, and I also shoot an OU in 12ga. I don’t notice a whole lot of recoil difference in the two, probably because my OU is a pound heavier. I’m gonna buy a little rooster XR to fool around with this year. A little hotter and kind of pricey, but interesting stuff. Early season tho, my go to gun is my 20ga OU with HeavyWeight 7s. That load will really reach out with a 20ga., just way expensive if you miss a lot.
 
birdshooter said:
I am curious though as to why they don't offer it in say a 36gr. (1 1/4oz) #5. :confused:
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Because w/ 5's, they'd have to speed them up to about 1400 to have the same effective range as the slower 4's. It'd no longer be the soft-shooting load that it is now. Sure, they could keep the muzzle velocity at 1100, but 5's that slow wouldn't have the range most people expect in a pheasant load. (Yes, plenty for closer birds, but still nearly 10 yards less range than the 4's)
 
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mgorvi said:
Those are 2 3/4-11/8 oz loads out of my 20ga.
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I think Federal has discontinued the 2-3/4" 20 ga. TSS loads in lieu of 3"ers, probably figuring their market is mostly turkey guys who want as much shot in the air as possible. What would be a nice 20 ga. pheasant load might be 1-1/8 oz of TSS 9's in that 1100-1200 neighborhood.
 
Ya that wouldn’t surprise me if they did. The 3” is just too expensive to keep buying. I bought ten boxes of the 2 3/4 last season so I still can do some missing with it, then I got to find a no tox load for my 20ga. I shot a fair amount of Kent Bismuth in my 12ga. last season, but I have no way of knowing where it was going cuz I didn’t pattern it before I went. I hunt a lot of WPAs so I gotta figure out what to use and pattern it. Kent makes it for 16 and 20ga. as well, but I never used it for my 20ga. I remember the Kent TM stuff too, but so expensive and hard to find. I wonder if steel is more efficient than bismuth? Not sure, but I should try and figure that out. Maybe I should just start shooting steel for no tox.
 
mgorvi said:
I got to find a no tox load for my 20ga. I hunt a lot of WPAs so I gotta figure out what to use and pattern it. Maybe I should just start shooting steel for no tox.
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I would agree. You shouldn't have any problems killin' pheasants out to ~40 yards with 20ga 3" 1 oz. loads of #3 or #2 steel (choked appropriately), IF you can put the pattern on the front end of the pheasant! If you must take longer shots, a 12ga with 1 1/8 oz. of #2 steel would be the way to go.

Here are a few of my 20ga pattern numbers (with the chokes I usually use) to give you an idea of the kind of performance you might get with these loads.

Pattern numbers from a 20-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

20 GA 3" ESTATE STEEL LOAD
1 oz. #3 steel (147 pellets) @ 1330 fps
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 120 (82%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 111 (76%)

20 GA 3" WINCHESTER DRYLOK SUPER-X STEEL LOAD
1 oz. #3 steel (145 pellets) @ 1330 fps
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 114 (78%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 106 (73%)

20 GA 3" REMINGTON NITRO-STEEL MAGNUM LOAD
1 oz. #2 steel (118 pellets) @ 1330 fps
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 101 (86%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 99 (84%)

Good luck!
 
My Father use to be a Wholesale Hardware Sales Man and his Company sold to NE IA & SD stores and the #1 selling load for Pheasant's for the 40 years he did this Job was a 12ga 2 3/4 inch 3 3/4dr 1330 FPS 1 1/4oz load in 6 shot and the number two selling was same load in 4 shot. This was from the 1960's through the 1990's. Referred to as Duck & Pheasant loads.
I do think a lot of how a shell is going to pattern is how based on how hard the shot is and I would take a 1330 FPS load with Hard Shot than a 1230 FPS load with Chilled Shot, for lead shot loads.
The problem with some of the old Duck and Pheasant 1330 FPS loads was they were marketed and sold at a low price point and with cheap Chilled shot. Like the old Winchester Duck & Pheasant loads with a fiber wad and plastic wrapped shot compared to the Winchester Super X loads with plastic wad. The Plastic Wad was the best thing that happened to lead shotgun shell's. I also know that 1330 FPS load is at 70F and when it's cold like 10F here in Iowa or colder you are not getting that kind of speed and Tom Roster is correct to step up a shot size to carry energy to the target and Colder weather open up Patterns and degrades patterns.
Yes that old Duck & Pheasant load was Very Effective and Millions of Pheasant's and Ducks were bagged with it, and inside of 40 yards is where 99% of Upland birds were bagged it just plane works.
 
1100 Remington Man said:
My Father use to be a Wholesale Hardware Sales Man and his Company sold to NE IA & SD stores and the #1 selling load for Pheasant's for the 40 years he did this Job was a 12ga 2 3/4 inch 3 3/4dr 1330 FPS 1 1/4oz load in 6 shot and the number two selling was same load in 4 shot. This was from the 1960's through the 1990's. Referred to as Duck & Pheasant loads..
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Yeah back in the day #5 shot was nowhere near as prevelant as it is today. I remember those Federal Duck & Pheasant loads as they were marketed. You had the choice of #6 or #4 and that was it. I suspect if #5 had been just as available you likely would have seen good sales with those as well.
 
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