Upland4Ever
New member
I've been training my 7 year lab pretty hard on marking and waterfowl. He has been listening to a Tee without his ecollar. And response well to whistle commands. Do I leave the ecollar off?
Does every dog need an ecollar
- Thread starter Upland4Ever
- Start date
In my limited (one dog so far, just starting my second - flushing labs), a dog who listens to a Tee in training does not need an ecollar when training, but that same dog may become an entirely different animal when real birds are involved! My last dog was impeccable (by my own definition as a "meat dog" I mean) in training. For waterfowl though she would only be steady if she was wearing the collar. Same with pheasant hunting - her recall and whiste sits were absolutely 100% rock solid with ANY distraction that I could come up with as a test, but once she got a snootfull of pheasant, she was deaf. Just my experience though. With this pup (9 months old) I'm trying to go without an e-collar at all (again). I'm following some British material - mainly a book called British Training for American Retrievers. Much of what is written in there could probably incite massive debates on retriever training forums, but that's not important here. It's early days yet, and our apocalyptic winter here in Nova Scotia has hampered training somewhat, but from what I can see, I think that her innate prey drive is going to be too much to overcome without the ecollar. I'm not saying it would be impossible, but it would be a monumental challenge, and one that I probably don't have the time or skills to meet.
Cheers,
-Dave
Cheers,
-Dave
mnaj_springer
New member
Not every dog "needs" it. But they're nice to have when you do need it.
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
An ecollar is not for training, it is for reinforcing what the dog has already learned.
Upland4Ever
New member
All good help for me. I guess I'll be keeping it on during the hunt. But not training.
mnaj_springer
New member
Whoa, wait. Is your dog collar conditioned? Does he know how to "shut off" the stimulation? Those are things you teach him during training.
I'm an old cantankerous guy, I will used a tracking collar on a far ranging dog. I don't have a training collar, and have not used one, but I have seen it done, not always with good results. We had great dogs before electrical stimulation, maybe now it's easier, or perhaps we are raising hard headed dogs who have to have it to respond? Time, training, selecting the right bloodlines, seems to work for me. I do not or have need to train for snake, porcupine, armadillo avoidance, chasing farm animals, run off dogs, (far ranging is not a run off by the way!) or fighting on the grounds. All grounds to neuter and find a generous home. I reserve my affection for the hard working dogs, who may not be perfect, but make an honest attempt to do it right, those are keepers.
birdshooter
Well-known member
In my case, besides being able to have some control, my collars have beepers on them which I I use to locate the dogs in heavy cover.
yup, that's about all i use my collars for, since my dogs are collar conditioned, i rarely have to correct them, when the collars are on their behavior is impeccable!
I have used my ecollar with great success to teach my fiances dogs not to bark at the neighbors kids and currently working on using it to keep them from running off. These are older house dogs that were not trained properly when they were puppies...I am basically cleaning up the trash since they will be living in my house.
My boss also uses one to train his dog. He doesn't even hunt, but he always has had one for training purposes.
Him and I both have one thing in common when using them though. We both use the tone button prob 10 times for every shock we send. My dogs learn very quick that the tone means business. Then when they do well, they are praised heavily. Sometimes I go out training and put the ecollar on and never even turn it on. Gradually I start to take the collar off and they still listen.
My boss also uses one to train his dog. He doesn't even hunt, but he always has had one for training purposes.
Him and I both have one thing in common when using them though. We both use the tone button prob 10 times for every shock we send. My dogs learn very quick that the tone means business. Then when they do well, they are praised heavily. Sometimes I go out training and put the ecollar on and never even turn it on. Gradually I start to take the collar off and they still listen.
Shawk
Member
Mine is on my GSP for every trip even though I rarely use it... at some point it may save her life (along busier roads, ect). My GSP and my previous Brit absolutely love/loved the collar. They go bonkers when it's pulled out and can't wait to get it on (just like they do when I grab my gun or start putting my boots on)... I even play fetch with it and my GSP loves it. It's been a positive thing from day one. People think it's a little nutty how much my dogs like their collar, but they should if you do it right... :thumbsup: Unless I forget to put it on, it'll always be on my dog for that "just in case" moment. She thinks it's better than a treat to wear it!
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+1 :10sign: that sums up my experience with one as well.
jackrabbit
Active member
It works great for my lab and I can take him anywhere with it on without worrying about his behavior. He is great with it on. And not consistent without it on (some days can listen to everything, other days can want to run up to a dog walking on the sidewalk next to our house), so I just always put it on when going outside for anything longer than a quick pee break.
IMO I've done a good job of associating the collar with "fun," whether it is fetch with the tennis ball, a walk, an intense training session, or a hunt. But I think I've done too good of a job... At the sight of the collar coming out he literally jumps 360s and is very excited/high energy. Border line out of control until the collar is on him. Not a huge deal to me because I can slip it on quick even while he won't stop moving. But my wife does not like putting it on him because it's difficult to get on.
So... collar condition them properly. Make them excited about it. But one thing I failed, make them SIT while putting it on. I've got a lot of backtracking to do here, and it may not be worth the time & effort to me. That said, I'd rather have a dog too excited to see his collar rather than scared to his collar.
IMO I've done a good job of associating the collar with "fun," whether it is fetch with the tennis ball, a walk, an intense training session, or a hunt. But I think I've done too good of a job... At the sight of the collar coming out he literally jumps 360s and is very excited/high energy. Border line out of control until the collar is on him. Not a huge deal to me because I can slip it on quick even while he won't stop moving. But my wife does not like putting it on him because it's difficult to get on.
So... collar condition them properly. Make them excited about it. But one thing I failed, make them SIT while putting it on. I've got a lot of backtracking to do here, and it may not be worth the time & effort to me. That said, I'd rather have a dog too excited to see his collar rather than scared to his collar.
FCSpringer
Moderator
To answer the question on the topic title. Does every dog need an e collar? The answer is NO. It should be a rarity that you "Need" an ecollar. I have one, yes, as a tool in the box, and yes, I do use it. But very rare. I have 4 dogs here right now that have never had one on, one is steady, one being steady, one going to start the steady process, and one just starting to get shot birds. My 3 all age trial dogs, 2 of which are field champions, have not needed a collar in God knows how long. All 3 I did use it, but maybe a total of an hr the entire life of the dog as far as training goes. I do introduce all dogs to them eventually so they understand low level stimulus if I ever need it. And for hunting for safety. Some places I will strap it on if there is something that can cause harm to the dog. All dogs may break or run wild for any dumb reason at any time. I don't use it till the dog is steady to flush wing and shot. Positive reinforcement goes a long ways in training a dog. And the way most novice trainers should stick to. OK, for example everyone gets to a point where the dog is chasing fly aways right? Well maybe not some pointers, but flushing dogs will mostly chase, which is good. Its what I want. Shows desire, helps a solid "flush". Which is what you want in any "flushing" breed... Simply get some pigeons, go to a vast big field void of hazards, cars etc. toss em in and and let the dog flush em. Let him see you plant. Let him chase till he cant chase no more. Whistle him back, and each time he comes, and responds to your whistle, throw the clip wing or dead in your vest for him to retrieve. As soon as he can see you and coming back. Just toss it high in the air. He will fly over to it and fetch it up all happy. Start saying no when he chases, keep tossing up the bird after calling him back as soon as he sees or looks at you on his return. Pretty soon, no shots no retrieves on them fly aways, he figures it out. Flush, "NO!", no chase, reward. Simple and no collar.
There is a method to the madness that works for everything mostly with no collar. No matter the breed. Why there is novice dog owners, and professional trainers. I would not buy a dog from lines that have to be forced to do anything for generations. If you have to force break dogs every generation for example, your not breeding natural ability. They are of little value to me. Why buy that when the next guy has pups 9 weeks old retrieving pigeons, and loving it? That's the first place to start in order to save headache. Get a pup from lines of dogs that do the tasks on their own, not from the ones that are forced to do something they don't want to. Most things are hereditary, even a certain annoying whine from mom to a pup. We hear about the retrieve a bunch. "Force", well there is a difference in force breaking, and a simple polish. Most hunting dogs don't even need that "polish" If it "needs" "Force" to do tasks, it should be removed from the gene pool. Just my 2 cents.
There is a method to the madness that works for everything mostly with no collar. No matter the breed. Why there is novice dog owners, and professional trainers. I would not buy a dog from lines that have to be forced to do anything for generations. If you have to force break dogs every generation for example, your not breeding natural ability. They are of little value to me. Why buy that when the next guy has pups 9 weeks old retrieving pigeons, and loving it? That's the first place to start in order to save headache. Get a pup from lines of dogs that do the tasks on their own, not from the ones that are forced to do something they don't want to. Most things are hereditary, even a certain annoying whine from mom to a pup. We hear about the retrieve a bunch. "Force", well there is a difference in force breaking, and a simple polish. Most hunting dogs don't even need that "polish" If it "needs" "Force" to do tasks, it should be removed from the gene pool. Just my 2 cents.
FCSpringer
Moderator
Its hard for anyone on the internet to be able to see, or tell you at any time, on any dog, weather to use any tool on them for any reason. Sounds to me like your doing fine LOL. A couple cornels of dog food in a pocket from time to time when they behave goes a long ways too. Dogs love the pat on the head and some "Good boy" rub ups.
Praise is the most important tool which all dogs respond to the best. Sounds to me like that's all your dog needs.