I am wondering about which field trial game is the best for hunting pointing dogs? I have trialed horseback all-age, and shooting dogs. I feel it shows the dog on a course, so search and game finding are important. I have seen an NSTRA trial, which is like a "bird field" situation, but unlike the horseback all-age, and shooting dogs, which do not retrieve, at least here you shoot and retrieve as part of the game! There are others, like the trials where they have a small bird field, with a time limit, number of shells, etc. again a bird field , doesn't address the search issue. I also am contemplating AKC Master Hunter, trials, where all dogs could qualify, in the earlier categories, like JH, if it's a bird dog, that is not gun shy, and who routes out a bird, and runs after it qualifies. I thought about NVHDA association, seem like real nice people! But I think I am leaning to English Pointers, or English Setters. Neither are really competent in the water. I almost never shot a bird in a pond, but with cajoling, my setter brought it back! I have a lab now. Also there is National Bird Hunter trials, US complete shooting dog trials. I would like an honest opinion from people who trial some of these, Please no "my dog or breed is better than yours" dribble. Just trial experience, and why it works in a hunting scenario, As I said, we don't have grounds, horses in the back yard, these days, ( From experience, if you do, you won't have time to hunt!). So practical analysis of trials that help a hunting dog, do it's job, game finding, especially handling tough bird finding grounds, ( like the local public area, in mid-season), nose, stanchness, retrieve to hand. Let the games begin! Reminder, if I see the dog and breed argument, I will have a moderator shut it down! All pointing dogs are equal here!
Best field trial game for hunters?
- Thread starter oldandnew
- Start date
dead pheasants forever
Member
I don't think there's a best field trial format. Whatever you enjoy the most is the best one for you. If you're asking which is the best test of a pointing dog, I'd still say AA horseback hands down. That's where the level competition is the highest. Most good hunting dogs Have AA blood in their pedigrees, even if its not in the first couple generations. A good dog with AA breeding can usually adapt to walking trials, but not vice versa. Aside from that, there's really no bad format as long as you're having a good time. All of them are a far cry from real hunting.
OandN,
Don't count out NAVHDA because you decide on a pointer or setter. EP's and ES's are both breeds that are NAVHDA eligible. Check out NAVHDA Test Booklets on the website for "DOG REPORT". You'll find Pointers and Setters that do water work just fine. The retrieving and water work is so important in NAVHDA Testing that EP and ES NAVHDA dogs probably have stronger inclination to do these jobs than a lot of EP's and ES's. They are not among the most popular breeds in NAVHDA but they are there.
Don't count out NAVHDA because you decide on a pointer or setter. EP's and ES's are both breeds that are NAVHDA eligible. Check out NAVHDA Test Booklets on the website for "DOG REPORT". You'll find Pointers and Setters that do water work just fine. The retrieving and water work is so important in NAVHDA Testing that EP and ES NAVHDA dogs probably have stronger inclination to do these jobs than a lot of EP's and ES's. They are not among the most popular breeds in NAVHDA but they are there.
goldenboy
Well-known member
I have run AKC for Juniors, Seniors and Masters. I would not recommend them. It tends to lean more towards water dogs. I run retrievers so it is good for lining and taking casts, but in my opinion is not good for actual hunting situations, it leans more towards retrieving.
I have also run the timed hunt tests. They are good for hunting situations but they tend to put birds in more open cover where a typical hunting dog doesn't usually cover. Mine went immediately to the thicker cover and bypassed the open fields where the birds were planted. Not a very good actual hunting situation in my opinion.
One word of advise, whatever game you get into there is always a strong learning curve. I suggest you watch the game first, ask questions and learn as much as you can before ever entering a dog. Handling is a big part of the games I have been involved in.
I have also run the timed hunt tests. They are good for hunting situations but they tend to put birds in more open cover where a typical hunting dog doesn't usually cover. Mine went immediately to the thicker cover and bypassed the open fields where the birds were planted. Not a very good actual hunting situation in my opinion.
One word of advise, whatever game you get into there is always a strong learning curve. I suggest you watch the game first, ask questions and learn as much as you can before ever entering a dog. Handling is a big part of the games I have been involved in.
Hey Dakotazeb, I know you have a real good dog that competes in NSTRA. When you go hunting with that dog, is it a seamless transition? Is there a "race " or search pattern in the testing? My fear is we are getting into a 7-12 acre bird field without encouraging the dogs to go forward and hunt for wild birds. I saw one test on a miserable day, freezing cold, snow about six inches, birds were under hay clumps in the open field, not in the edge, in the ditch, places a wild bird would be. Again it might be that the conditions were miserable, and many years have passed, and procedures are better refined! Thanks.
With my first dog,I did AKC hunt tests,junior,senior and master.I enjoyed them alot but at the time,after master there was no further you can go.
I also run in puppy,derby and gun dog stakes but was told by judges that they liked the dog but didn't place her because she didn't have enough run in her.They sugested I start training off horseback,which I couldn't do and I stopped doing that.
I did pheasant championships with my first and second dog and enjoyed them alot,but they stopped doing them in my neck of the woods.
Alot of the guys I trained with did NSTRA and I began doing that with my second and now current dog and I find this format to be as close as possible to a real hunting situation.I believe a good NSTRA dog(bird finding machine,classy finds,good retriever,honors other dog's points,covers ground and is obedient)is exactly what a good hunting dog should be.
Just my two cents.
I also run in puppy,derby and gun dog stakes but was told by judges that they liked the dog but didn't place her because she didn't have enough run in her.They sugested I start training off horseback,which I couldn't do and I stopped doing that.
I did pheasant championships with my first and second dog and enjoyed them alot,but they stopped doing them in my neck of the woods.
Alot of the guys I trained with did NSTRA and I began doing that with my second and now current dog and I find this format to be as close as possible to a real hunting situation.I believe a good NSTRA dog(bird finding machine,classy finds,good retriever,honors other dog's points,covers ground and is obedient)is exactly what a good hunting dog should be.
Just my two cents.
Dakotazeb
Well-known member
The dogs seem to learn the difference between trialing and hunting. Because I want the dog to run big in NSTRA you do sometimes have to reign them in a little when hunting pheasants. NSTRA trials are generally run on approx. 40 acre fields. The conditions you describe are not normal conditions. In our region we are usually running in grass or alfalfa. If you are looking for a fun venue to run your dog I'd suggest you give NSTRA a try. Take it for what it is and try not to get too serious, just have some fun.
I sort of posed this same question on another forum. I'd like to see pointing dogs ran against a standard rather than against other dogs. It just seems to me that the good ole boy system could make or break a guy and his dog in AF.
What if, there were a trial that set the dog against a standard. No brace mates. Ran over a very large piece of ground, the dog was required to find and point X amount of birds in X amount of time. 40 acres just isn't much ground. And I would think that after a while the 40 acres would become so heavily scented that some dogs may have a tough time. I don't know I'm just throwing that out there and may be all wet on that one.
I'd like to see a format that compares the dog to a standard, lets the dog run, and if it gets out of sight thats ok. Requires the dog to be honest on his birds. ect ect....
Maybe something like this exists. I have no clue about pointing dog stuff.
Had to edit. Spoke maybe too soon. I'm reading something like this on the UKC website now.
Take a look at the UKC venue. It may be more in line of what your looking for. Dog must retrieve but says nothing about water.
What if, there were a trial that set the dog against a standard. No brace mates. Ran over a very large piece of ground, the dog was required to find and point X amount of birds in X amount of time. 40 acres just isn't much ground. And I would think that after a while the 40 acres would become so heavily scented that some dogs may have a tough time. I don't know I'm just throwing that out there and may be all wet on that one.
I'd like to see a format that compares the dog to a standard, lets the dog run, and if it gets out of sight thats ok. Requires the dog to be honest on his birds. ect ect....
Maybe something like this exists. I have no clue about pointing dog stuff.
Had to edit. Spoke maybe too soon. I'm reading something like this on the UKC website now.
Take a look at the UKC venue. It may be more in line of what your looking for. Dog must retrieve but says nothing about water.
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I've had a lot of fun in both NAVHDA and NSTRA. The OP discounted NAVHDA due to his inclination to run pointers or setters, and his concerns that those breeds wouldn't handle the water work well. You'll find dogs from a dozen or so breeds at NAVHDA tests. My chapter sees a lot shorthairs and wirehairs, with a few Griffs, Munsterlanders, V's, and Weims, along with a smattering of everything else. I've run a pointer all the way through the Invitational, and he received max scores in every water and retrieve portion of every test. My 13-year old daughter has handled her pointer to good scores in it's first two tests, so I'm not convinced that one would be at any disadvantage with a long tail. NAVHDA is a great venue to help you get your dog trained to a high functional level, with an emphasis on obedience and handling. You're competing with a standard, rather than with other dogs.
NSTRA seems to be more of a speed game, with direct competition, both with your brace mates and every other dog in the trial. Your dog will get scored on finds, retrieves, backing, ground coverage, and obedience. Style is rewarded to some degree. I've had a great time at the trials as I usually pull a camper and stay on the trial grounds with quite a few other handlers, where it's fun to swap lies and brag about your dogs in the evenings. The trials I've attended were dominated by Brits, GSP's, pointers, and setters.
Don't know much about the horseback trials, the horse part of that equation rules out my participating. AKC tests should offer a similar experience to NAVHDA, but without the water component, and less emphasis on the retrieving. Been through a number of Bird Dog Challenge events, fun way to spend a day in the off season, but the 5-7 acre fields don't allow a pointing dog to stretch it's legs much.
My strategy going forward will be to get a dog through the NAVHDA tests, then jump into NSTRA trials. I've found both to be great venues, full of good people. I've made a lot of longtime hunting partners through folks I met in those two organizations.
NSTRA seems to be more of a speed game, with direct competition, both with your brace mates and every other dog in the trial. Your dog will get scored on finds, retrieves, backing, ground coverage, and obedience. Style is rewarded to some degree. I've had a great time at the trials as I usually pull a camper and stay on the trial grounds with quite a few other handlers, where it's fun to swap lies and brag about your dogs in the evenings. The trials I've attended were dominated by Brits, GSP's, pointers, and setters.
Don't know much about the horseback trials, the horse part of that equation rules out my participating. AKC tests should offer a similar experience to NAVHDA, but without the water component, and less emphasis on the retrieving. Been through a number of Bird Dog Challenge events, fun way to spend a day in the off season, but the 5-7 acre fields don't allow a pointing dog to stretch it's legs much.
My strategy going forward will be to get a dog through the NAVHDA tests, then jump into NSTRA trials. I've found both to be great venues, full of good people. I've made a lot of longtime hunting partners through folks I met in those two organizations.
Dakotazeb
Well-known member
Craig,you can come to my NSTRA trial over near Watertown the first weekend in April. Love to see you and your girls again.
Zeb;
I'd love to come, but my dog has had an old injury resurface that has pretty much ended his career, and Klaire's track season will be in full swing by then. Probably have to wait to get another dog started before I can get back into the trials.
Good luck with your event!
CK
I'd love to come, but my dog has had an old injury resurface that has pretty much ended his career, and Klaire's track season will be in full swing by then. Probably have to wait to get another dog started before I can get back into the trials.
Good luck with your event!
CK