Any good books on Training Pointing labs

Natty Bumpo said:
"Pointing" is an inherited trait, not a learned behavior. Literally, you dont "train" a bird dog to point. They either are born with a strong pointing instinct or not. A well bred EP,ES,Brit or GSP will point anything and everything right from Day 1.

I hunt every year behind several Labs which come directly out of PL kennels.
Most of them never "point" anything under actual hunting conditions.

Training a dog to "stop" when it smells a bird is a whole different business, than "pointing". I can train a Tzitz Suix or any other mop dog to "stop" when it smells a bird.:cool:

NB
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Right own, thats why I went to wesslpointers www.wesslpointers.com
 
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Hmmmm...

Pointless to rehash what has been rehashed so many times before.. but, what the heck!!

"Pointing" bird scent is not the same as "standing" bird scent.

Real pointing is genetic and it is genetic in some labs, beause it was put in there by breeding over 100 years ago!

Labs with genetics to point, point naturally!!

Labs that don't have the genetics, may be thought to be pointing labs by some people, but, if they don't have it, they dont have it.

..Same is true for real pointing breeds. I have read many stories and posts where true pointing breed owners are saying things like "my GPS wont point, what do I do".

Just went to a run and gun event and watched two fabulous / instinctive / natural pointing pointing labs find, point and retrieve birds faster than 30 "true pointers" (mostly GSPs).. I wonder how that happened?

Don't get me wrong, I love true pointers too. I just love to watch any dog point.

.. but, I it amazing to me how some people become, what I call, dog-snobs and only the type of dog worth having is the type of dog they have.

As I have said before, if breed alteration was not an acceptable thing, we would all be hunting with wolves!!!

For example, if you own and appreciate your true pointing GSP, but, don't believe that PLs are real or should be bred for, its a good thing "they" did not think that way back when, when somebody had the idea of breeding to create the first GSP?

How did we ever get to this point where we have so many great breeds... not by only keeping the breeds that were present at that time!

Why are the current breeds locked in place and never allowed to be changed again in the future?

I would actually be in favor of coming up with a new breed for PL's. I don't care what you call them. I just know that real PLs that do point naturally and still can do 300 yard blind retrieves are AWESOME, versatile hunting partners.

by the way... on PL's not pointing wild birds. I have been on over 50 wild bird pheasant hunting trips in the last 3 years with GSPs, ES, BS and PLs. None of those dogs point running birds. Wild birds run most of the time. If a bird holds, all of them point. This is just our group, so I am not saying its true for everyone, but, between our group of GSPs, ES, BS and PLs.. the two dogs that find and point the most birds consistently are both PLs! Those two PL's, however, are definitely genetic/natural pointers and are outstanding dogs, so it may just not be fair to compare to the other dogs that may just not be as good as some of their cousins in the true pointing breeds.

I saw one guy run a GSP in the run and gun event that was having a great/fast run... his dog had pointed and retrieved the first 2 birds well, then, all of a sudden, after he shoots the 3rd bird... he starts throwing sticks at the bird in an attempt to entice his GSP to retrieve the bird!!!

Hmmmm...

A versatile retrieving pointer, that was great at pointing, but, twernt so good at retrieving.

I wonder if that may be similar to a versatile pointing retriever that retrieves great and points well most of the time, but, perhaps, not as consistently as the pointing breeds????
 
Zbirdman- I have a female cat that points and retrieves to hand- I didn't try to promote a new breed of cat, advertise, look for another cat with the same tendencies, breed the two, declare "new Breed" "pointerkitty" and sell 8 week olds for $2,000.00 as the wonder all- designer breed- nothing short

doubt there's a PL in the country that can match a FC GSP
 
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Sorry

Shadow.....

Sorry to hear about your cat..... that you have one!!!

Good "point" on the FC GSP.... if only I, or anyone had made any comment about a FC GSP... your "point" may have even been relevant!!

.... but, since you offerred it up.... I wonder how a FC GSP would do on a 300 yard blind retrieve vs a GMPR???

... pretty hard to throw a stick 300 yards!!!

next???
 
hmmm

well, I guess that says it all right there...

... it may help you to look up the definition of "blind" retrieve.

It's a "true" retriever skill!!!!
 
zBIRDMAN I VERY RARELY AGREE WITH ANYTHING SHADOW SAYS but i do on this a BLIND retrieve is a retriever skill but any dog worth his weight can do a blind retrieve and i would put money on any of my britts or shadows for that matter on them bieng as good if not better than a pointing lab on blind retrieves
 
Zbirdman said:
well, I guess that says it all right there...

... it may help you to look up the definition of "blind" retrieve.

It's a "true" retriever skill!!!!
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oh I think I know what you mean- you mean a superbly trained PL who needs whistle and hand signals to locate- who is hidden from seeing- might be totally out of it's element in upland hunting

you walk out with a gun in your hand and a live bird- and shoot and the bird comes down- you think mine couldn't find that bird and bring it to me

I know of a NSTRA pointer who was entered in a Missouri run and gun contest on pheasants- they acused him of cheating- "nobody can take a dog and point, kill, and retrieve 4 roosters in 20 min"
 
Take a look...

To be clear....

I do not believe there is any value in saying one breed is better then another...

All breeds have their value or they would not exist.

That is not why I chimed in to this post.

I was simply responding to somebody above that said pointing labs don't point.

That was just a statement made out of, I assume, either ignorance or just the misfortune of not ever having seen or hunted with a real pointing lab.

In case you guys care to see the versatility of a real pointing lab (and I am sure you don't)... check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8ocsPNKts

In that video, you will see the lab:
- pointing pheasant
- being steady to wing /shot (listen for his name to be called to retrieve)
- retrieving pheasant
- delivering to hand (marked falls, not blinds)
- retrieving geese (all blind retreives because the dog was in a pit and never saw any of the geese fall.)

A few of the goose retrieves were even "blind" for the handler, as the geese has sailed out of sight over a ridge in the field, so the dog could not be handled all the way to the bird.. he had to use his nose to locate the bird. The handler was just putting him in the general area of the fall. That is what can happen in "real" hunting... it's not always like a hunt test.
 
Zbirdman...very nice!

Really enjoyed watching your boy work. And the young dog brought a chuckle to me...he was having an absolute blast!

It'll be hashed a million more times. I try to keep an open mind and see the beauty in all breeds...they all have special talents, and it's just plain fun to see dogs do what they do! I was watching some border collies on TV recently in a hearding contest in Ireland. Those dogs were smarter than me, 'cause I couldn't figure out what all the different whistle commands meant! Really cool.

Congrats on the fine dog, and post another link when that little black guy has it "Mastered"!:cheers:

Greg
 
Thanks!

Thanks PointnLab!!

That little guy, Jet, is 8 months old now and he has the great fortune of being owned by a guy that hunts geese every single weekend of the normal duck/goose season, as a warm up for his true passion.. snow goose hunting.

I had taken Jet as a stud fee and worked with him for a few weeks before I sold him to the "Goose Slayer".

He was one smart cookie!! At 14 weeks he was heeling, waiting for his name to be called to retrieve and delivering to hand 100% of the time!!

Of course, now, really all he does is retrieve, retrieve retrieve... with no more real formal training, so he has lost a bit of his discipline, but, every retrieve he does is a blind retrieve, since they hunt out of a pit and he does that very well for no training. I guess you could say he gets "on the job training" now.

I just received this note from Jet's owner today..


Well snow goose season is basically over and after 299 birds shot in my field I guess it’s about time. Jet really did well all season and last weekend he brought the birds right to the pit which is cool!! Some people have commented on how he is already looking for birds and using his nose which I guess isn’t normal for a 6 to 7 month old lab. When he gets down wind he can smell them from 50 yards away which is cool to watch. I am really going to have fun training him this summer and hopefully we can get together and train with some live birds.

I am really happy to have him, the timing couldn’t have been better. How often does a smart dog get to retrieve hundreds of birds at 6 months old? Too cool. I had a great time hunting with him, he is already the perfect dog for my style of hunting, he sits in the pit, goes in the pit with no trouble and brings the birds to the pit. He even had a fight with a nasty blue goose, I tried to video it but it was over by the time I got the camera on.

There are quite a few things I want to teach him this summer so be expecting a lot of questions!

Anyway thanks again for letting me have him, he’s the greatest!!!
 
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Zbirdman,

Sounds like Jet is "Livin' the Dream"! Lucky Dog!
 
Yeah I have been reading julies book training the pointing labrador and also shooting dog. Im still waiting for more feedback on the new dvds that are out. anyone have any input I have heard both ways
 
Julie Knutson's books are the bible for pointing labs. They are awesome reads. I also must agree that we purchased our male from BearPoint Kennels because I wanted to start with the best and have the most natural ability. I can notice a difference between our male that naturally points out of habit and it's and instant point. My female that doesn't have the "pointing" bred in her is a little slower but she still does. It's incredible. I've also used Julie's book to help with training my GSP.
 
Natty Bumpo said:
"Pointing" is an inherited trait, not a learned behavior. Literally, you dont "train" a bird dog to point. They either are born with a strong pointing instinct or not. A well bred EP,ES,Brit or GSP will point anything and everything right from Day 1.

I hunt every year behind several Labs which come directly out of PL kennels.
Most of them never "point" anything under actual hunting conditions.

Training a dog to "stop" when it smells a bird is a whole different business, than "pointing". I can train a Tzitz Suix or any other mop dog to "stop" when it smells a bird.:cool:

NB
Click to expand...
Right on!! Here we go again! Be nice guys! Why not talk about the other differences. Grown covered, light on there feet,endurance, type of birds that are hunted. In stead of fighting. just explain the differences and what "you" like in a pointing dog. You can have the type of dog you like!
 
Excuse my ignorance here, but I've been reading this long thread, and I'm wondering why if pointing labs are bred to point, like any other pointing breed, why would you need any "breed specific" reference to learn training techniques? It seems that any of a number a great pointing dog training books, Robt. Whele's Wing and Shot, Richard Wolter's book, to name two, would suffice. Neither is breed specific, merely intructs, and builds, based on inherited traits shared by all pointing dog breeds. Many a britt, shorthair, or spinone, has been trained the same way. Why not a Lab? Seems like a lot of tail twisting and handwringing over nothing. The pictures may be pointers and setters but the principles are the same. If there some compelling reason beyond that I am not aware of, enlighten me.
 
Good Point on the Pointing Side Anyway

That is a good "point"... (no pun intended)...

For the pointing side of things, I think you could use any good pointing book...

One aspect, though, that may not be covered in a pointing book is that pointing lab owners typically want to teach their dogs all the normal lab stuff too... like multiple mark and blind retrieves on land and water.

I supposed one choice would be to use a pointer book for the pointing stuff and a retriever book for the retriever stuff...

Because of the versatility of a pointing lab, it is nice to have a versatile training reference that shows you all that you need to know.

Julie's Book just brings that all together into one place.

On a related note... and just to share... he is a short clip of a PL (Bear) working a rooster...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBC8gID_KP4
 
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