Where do standards come from?

[gundogguy]

With this amazing spring weather that has been upon us lately,( here in Greatlakes region of the country) my activities are more like June than March.

At a recent training class a question was brought up as to where different canine behaviors came from, who instigated them and why?? By behaviors i refer to such actions,as, Staunchness to point, steadiness to wing and shot,whether pointed or flushed by a dog, delivery of the bird to hand, proper recall, and handling, and so on.
Also is it really that important to train the dogs to comply with these standards? Are standards neccessary in having a good day afield,? which of course is more than just filling the bag with shot game.

 

[BritChaser]

Field trial competition standards must be adhered to in order to succeed in them. Staunchness and "broke to flush and shot" are among the required qualities. I myself do not participate in field trials. All of my hunting is of wild birds, mostly on the high plains of western Kansas. "Broke to flush and shot" is not a trait I want in my wild bird hunting dog, although I trained him to "whoa" on command which I use to stop him from going where he shouldn't. In short, for just good hunting, train your dog up the way you want him, but for field trials you have to train to standards.

 

[gundogguy]

Field trial competition standards must be adhered to in order to succeed in them. Staunchness and "broke to flush and shot" are among the required qualities. I myself do not participate in field trials. All of my hunting is wild birds, mostly on the high plains of western Kansas. "Broke to flush and shot" is not a trait I want in my wild bird hunting dog, although I trained him to "whoa" on command which I use to stop him from going where he shouldn't. IN short, for just good hunting, train your dog up the way yo uwant him, but for field trials you have to train to standards.

That's super you have a philosphy and you hunt by it.
There is no right or wrong answer.I once did some work for a hunter that had only 2 rules of standards.1st The dog had to accept gunfire, no question.
The 2nd rule was the dog had to go home with him after the hunt.
Anything else was justa bonus.
Thanks again for your comments

 

[Gatzby]

I dig a hole for myself every year by having mixed expectations. I have labradors and I expect them to be steady as a rock at hunt tests and in the duck blind. When we go upland hunting I do not want or require steady to shot or flush.... Heck I expect them to flush hard and I want a strong drive to retreive after shot. My expectations are a bit unfair to the dog and tend to muddy up there behavior. But I buy the food and as they get more mature they do tend the understand the different requirements. Delivery to hand and basic obediance are not a gray area. My dogs are expected to deliver to hand and behave like proper citizens always. Oh yea they deal with the confusion as long as they get a bird!!!

Steve

 

[SetterNut]

I have hunted a lot of years and shot more than my share of birds, over dogs that were not trained to a high level. It is certainly not necessary to have a fully broke dog to have a great day in the field with them.

That being said the more I hunt with finished or close to finished dogs the more important it has become for me. There is know question in my mind that a dog with high end manors around birds will put more birds in the bag.

To me a pointing dog should at a minimum, stand its birds and not move till you flush the bird, and back another dog without prompting. If they will do that you can hunt with most anyone.

However if your dog is steady to wing and shot, will stop to flush (if a bird flushes wild the dog will stop and stand until released), you will shoot more bird in a season.

I am close to having my 3 year old where I want him. He is steady to wing and shot on pigeons but I have had a hard time keeping him there on quail.

I enjoy the training time with the dogs, and they do too. You just have to take it a step at a time, be patient, fair and consistent with the the dog.

 

[OldDublin]

...At a recent training class a question was brought up as to where different canine behaviors came from, who instigated them and why?? By behaviors i refer to such actions,as, Staunchness to point, steadiness to wing and shot,whether pointed or flushed by a dog, delivery of the bird to hand, proper recall, and handling, and so on.

Originated from competition, marketing a product or servise, requirements of a nature that are personal, regional and bird specie driven along with, the luck of the draw to a degree.

 

[Nimrod]

The early "field trials" we're simply a contest between hunters to showcase their hunting dogs for bragging rights. The standards evolved from their experience in the field as to the preferable way to get the job done most effectively.

In the retriever trials for example, a man named Dave Elliot shocked the other contestants when he used a whistle & hand signals (as he'd seen used for sheepdogs) back in the 30s or 40s to begin the era of handling a dog to a bird he hadn't marked down.

Delivery to hand is appreciated if you've ever had a dog set down a crippled duck to shake as he exits the water, only to have the duck escape. And an upland dog that's "steady to wing &shot" not only allows a safer shot on low flushing birds, it also avoids the spectacle of 2 or more dogs trying to bring in the same shot bird.

As time passed, and the competitors got stiffer, a few "standards" evolved that aren't quite as obvious in their benefit to the hunter. *I'm thinking for example of the requirement for pointing dogs to be "high at both ends" w/ their tail straight up, or the fact that a spaniel that doesn't accelerate hard into the flush will have a very short trial career. Although there are justifications for these standards, it's interesting to see how low the setter's used to point in the old photos & to hear how spaniels in their original England are expected to "hesitate" at the flush rather than catch a bird (which is a disqualifying act)

 

[Shadow]

With this amazing spring weather that has been upon us lately,( here in Greatlakes region of the country) my activities are more like June than March.

At a recent training class a question was brought up as to where different canine behaviors came from, who instigated them and why?? By behaviors i refer to such actions,as, Staunchness to point, steadiness to wing and shot,whether pointed or flushed by a dog, delivery of the bird to hand, proper recall, and handling, and so on.
Also is it really that important to train the dogs to comply with these standards? Are standards neccessary in having a good day afield,? which of course is more than just filling the bag with shot game.

doesn't really matter if you hunt by yourself- go out with someone else- and that person should have a dog- doesn't matter to you and him if you both don't have as good or poor a dog- but one have a good dog and one not-

in short- your dog is beat all the time- you feel ok with that

 

[gundogguy]

That's the ticket

The early "field trials" we're simply a contest between hunters to showcase their hunting dogs for bragging rights. The standards evolved from their experience in the field as to the preferable way to get the job done most effectively.

In the retriever trials for example, a man named Dave Elliot shocked the other contestants when he used a whistle & hand signals (as he'd seen used for sheepdogs) back in the 30s or 40s to begin the era of handling a dog to a bird he hadn't marked down.

Delivery to hand is appreciated if you've ever had a dog set down a crippled duck to shake as he exits the water, only to have the duck escape. And an upland dog that's "steady to wing &shot" not only allows a safer shot on low flushing birds, it also avoids the spectacle of 2 or more dogs trying to bring in the same shot bird.

As time passed, and the competitors got stiffer, a few "standards" evolved that aren't quite as obvious in their benefit to the hunter. *I'm thinking for example of the requirement for pointing dogs to be "high at both ends" w/ their tail straight up, or the fact that a spaniel that doesn't accelerate hard into the flush will have a very short trial career. Although there are justifications for these standards, it's interesting to see how low the setter's used to point in the old photos & to hear how spaniels in their original England are expected to "hesitate" at the flush rather than catch a bird (which is a disqualifying act)

Thanks man,
Great insights across venue lines.

 

[gundogguy]

I have hunted a lot of years and shot more than my share of birds, over dogs that were not trained to a high level. It is certainly not necessary to have a fully broke dog to have a great day in the field with them.

That being said the more I hunt with finished or close to finished dogs the more important it has become for me. There is know question in my mind that a dog with high end manors around birds will put more birds in the bag.

To me a pointing dog should at a minimum, stand its birds and not move till you flush the bird, and back another dog without prompting. If they will do that you can hunt with most anyone.

However if your dog is steady to wing and shot, will stop to flush (if a bird flushes wild the dog will stop and stand until released), you will shoot more bird in a season.

I am close to having my 3 year old where I want him. He is steady to wing and shot on pigeons but I have had a hard time keeping him there on quail.

I enjoy the training time with the dogs, and they do too. You just have to take it a step at a time, be patient, fair and consistent with the the dog.

Very close to the way i feel about sporting dogs.
For me it has always been about developing a working relationship, and the whole steady process seems help the dog and myself get to know each other on a whole differeent level. It is like getting inside the dogs head and really understanding what makes them. Thanks for your insights