Wis birds and pointing dogs

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Deweybagger

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I'm trying to help my brother in law.He hunts with a female GSP, she has four hunting seasons to her credit, she's very birdie and loves to be in the field. Here's the problem, where we hunt on public land there a lot of pressure and the birds are running on him, his dog points and they fall farther behind, the dog points a hen and the rooster runs an flushes 60 yards out after they mess around at the point. He's only shot 1 bird this year that snuck out the back after a hard point that resulted in 2 hens flushing, then the rooster blew out 40 yards behind him, desperation shots followed and winged it down. He's about ready to hang it up and can't figure out why I'm able to bag all the time, alls I can tell him my lab doesn't stop and point, when he's birdie I have to be with him and in position for the shot, I know my dog as he does his. I know nothing about pointers, hunted behind a few Brits, English pointers, wire hair and his GSP. Of the few pointers his is my favorite, style, drive etc. I'd hate to see them done for the year, if anyone has a pointer that might be able to give me a few ideas for him I'd love to hear them. Thanks in advance
 
Expecting Text book points on pressured Pheasants where the population is low just ain't realistic from my experience. It's not that pheasants in a place like South Dakota are dumber it's just a percentage thing. If you encounter more birds you'll get more perfect dog work.

I want my dogs to stop asses the situation and move towards a moving bird with caution. Sometimes they get a bird pinned down and I can flush it, sometimes the bird flushes as the dogs relocate on it, other times the bird just flushes before the dogs even get close. I've even been known to tell the dog to flush a bird when staying out of the thick is the best chance for a shot.

Use the wind and try to push the birds into more horizontal cover birds have trouble running in when you can.

This is just my experience.
 
I agree with wisturkeys comments. Also as simple as it sounds, hunt at places that offer your dog the best chance at success. I run flushers so I avoid those areas of big open fields. My dogs work close and thus don't cover a lot of ground. A pointer would excel in a situation like that.

I seek thicker brushy cover. My flushers do well in that stuff as they will push those birds to flush. They are runners in that stuff.

Short summary put the odds in you favor and hunt cover that fits your pup.
 
He doesn't want to hang it up for the season as this will only hurt the learning curve. Sooner or later the light is going to go off in that dogs head and it will learn how to handle those pressured birds with ease. Not sure how close he keeps his dog but if he is keeping it too close he is hurting himself. He needs to allow the dog to try and relocate and set the bird from the front. The dog knows how to do this bit it will take a little practice on the dogs part which will result in a few bumped birds. The other thing he needs to do is only shoot pointed birds as this will make the dog handle the birds a little less aggressively usually resulting in less wild flushes.
 
pointers

I'm dealing with the same thing. My 1 year old english setter has flushed a bunch of running birds this year out of range. I'm hoping with experience he figures out how to handle them. He did well on grouse and woodcock but the released roosters are running on him and he hasn't figured out how to pin them. He seems to be getting better with experience and slowing his pace down. I alternate hunting him with my golden and I've bagged many more birds with the golden. The setter really moves and covers a lot of ground. The birds are just running on him and he hasn't figured out how to handle them yet. I'm having fun alternating the dogs though.
 
Hmmm...I have the best of both worlds: A Golden that points.

Keep the dog within shooting range and allow the ocassional point. I don't allow my dog to chase. He loves to do it! However, bumping birds is counter-productive for me and for him!!
 
jonnyB said:
Hmmm...I have the best of both worlds: A Golden that points.

Keep the dog within shooting range and allow the ocassional point. I don't allow my dog to chase. He loves to do it! However, bumping birds is counter-productive for me and for him!!
Click to expand...

A golden that bumps birds is counter productive?? Hmmmmm
 
Get him on wild birds...go west.your dog will be a pointing machine in a day.Put and take birds do not act like wild birds,period!You can shoot them with a load of 7's.Get your dog on grouse and woodcock.Phez are difficult.In Wisco. even harder.Just got back from dodge county,private ground,great cover.
3 roosters 4 hens.Hens ran,roosters stuck...
 
Deweybagger said:
I'm trying to help my brother in law.He hunts with a female GSP, she has four hunting seasons to her credit, she's very birdie and loves to be in the field. Here's the problem, where we hunt on public land there a lot of pressure and the birds are running on him, his dog points and they fall farther behind, the dog points a hen and the rooster runs an flushes 60 yards out after they mess around at the point. He's only shot 1 bird this year that snuck out the back after a hard point that resulted in 2 hens flushing, then the rooster blew out 40 yards behind him, desperation shots followed and winged it down. He's about ready to hang it up and can't figure out why I'm able to bag all the time, alls I can tell him my lab doesn't stop and point, when he's birdie I have to be with him and in position for the shot, I know my dog as he does his. I know nothing about pointers, hunted behind a few Brits, English pointers, wire hair and his GSP. Of the few pointers his is my favorite, style, drive etc. I'd hate to see them done for the year, if anyone has a pointer that might be able to give me a few ideas for him I'd love to hear them. Thanks in advance
Click to expand...


What kind of training has the dog had? You would need a baseline of the kind of conditioning you need to reshape?
 
shanew said:
Get him on wild birds...go west.your dog will be a pointing machine in a day.Put and take birds do not act like wild birds,period!You can shoot them with a load of 7's.Get your dog on grouse and woodcock.Phez are difficult.In Wisco. even harder.Just got back from dodge county,private ground,great cover.
3 roosters 4 hens.Hens ran,roosters stuck...
Click to expand...

I don't think Dewey is hunting put and take birds. If they are finding birds where he's hunting it's just a matter of hunting whenever he can and letting the dog figure it out. Grouse and especially woodcock will do no more good then putting out pen raised quail in his situation. He's having problems with his dog relocating on running pheasants not a dog that's not pointing. I do have to wonder about a dog that hasn't figured it out after 4 seasons.

I doubt 1/4 of the wild birds I kill in Wisconsin is killed at the first spot the dogs indicate they are smelling the bird. For that reason I agree with you 100%that the dog needs wild pheasants to get good at it.

Yesterday I hunted a waterfowl production area I'd never been to before it was some nice grass with a low brushy/marshy spot in the middle. It was very windy so the low spot was the obvious bird spot.

As soon as the dogs (draht, and French britt) got close to the low spot they paused, head high, and just sucking hard. I knew there was a bird but that it wasn't going to die there. They worked through the low spot, stop, go pushing the bird, until it held up on the edge of some brushy cover. I swung around, flushed, and shot the bird. There is only one way for a dog to learn that and it's on wild pheasants and a handler that lets them run. On the other hand had the bird flushed before holding long enough for me to flush it I'd have shot him dead and considered it a success. You have to be realistic out there. The followed that bird for over 100 yards.

Not trying to argue just sharing my experience.
 
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Ok, I think what I'm understanding is he may not be letting his dog hunt far enough out. I do recall him always saying how close she works and if she starts to get out a little he tones her back. Now I'm starting to wonder if her beeper collar and tone on her shock collar are to close in tone and she's confused. She's new to the beeper this year because he lost her in a 200 acer, neck high field last year. At any rate she has had very little training, has lots of natural ability and seems to have a good nose, BUT seems from what he's saying she points and nobody's home.....she's not breaking point, he's walking around her kicking grass and then they go again. My uncles 12 yr old Brit points, bird moves, dog sneaks like a cat and back to point. Is this where the GSP needs to be? He thinks she should point and the bird should be there! They were but moved....he sees them but 50-80yrds out. we hunt public land that is not stocked and a few wpa around our county. Again I'm not having trouble because we trail until the dog flushes the bird or catches it. So should he allow her to hunt farther out????Now I'm lost:confused:
 
Sitting here thinking, she's scent pointing and losing ground. How does he move her? I also keep reading the terms "pay to play" and now "put and take" is this game farm hunting or something else? Would a game farm help her? We have tons of great grouse hunting at our cabin but don't hunt our woods for birds until after deer season....he's never brought her up, I know with out my lab you almost have to step on the grouse to move them. Anymore info is appreciated!
 
Some dogs do have trouble differentiating the tone/beeper and she could be thinking she's being hacked. Let the dog work, if he's got the e-collar on her then he should be able to re-enforce here. He also should let the dog re-locate (the cat like sneak) on the bird. Although during hunting season it's a bird harder to train, and involves having somewhat of a trained dog to know you're asking it to break point and re-establish.

To relocate I use a tap on the dog's head with the "easy" command. Although mine has had practice and knows what that means. Seems to me the GSP still needs time to figure things out. You're buddy would be better off focusing on letting the dog exhibit her natural ability and getting exposure right now than putting birds in the bag. Hard to do, but giving the dog the space to figure it out will pay big dividends in later seasons.

You could use "put and take"/"pay to play" places, game farms to help this. Or, at this point, he could ride the season out and spend time training the dog over the spring/summer.
 
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