U.S. Fish and Wildlife burns

[Weimdogman]

I had a great talk with a fireman from the regional S.Dak. office. He was telling me they do burns from early in the spring until like mid July. They are wiped out and equipment needs repairs by that time. They then resume around Sept 1st and go for months again.

He says they do burns in many states on various federal lands. They are now looking into the use of fall burns as a "new" conservation practice. As in doing burns in the fall in areas that have previously had spring burns.

I know a WPA I hunt , was burned 2 years ago in the spring. Was full of blustem and little else. After the burn , due to the lack of rain , little came back but thistles. This year has been just as dry but everything looks better.

 

[3car]

I had a great talk with a fireman from the regional S.Dak. office. He was telling me they do burns from early in the spring until like mid July. They are wiped out and equipment needs repairs by that time. They then resume around Sept 1st and go for months again.

He says they do burns in many states on various federal lands. They are now looking into the use of fall burns as a "new" conservation practice. As in doing burns in the fall in areas that have previously had spring burns.

I know a WPA I hunt , was burned 2 years ago in the spring. Was full of blustem and little else. After the burn , due to the lack of rain , little came back but thistles. This year has been just as dry but everything looks better.

So your a supporter of prescribed fire? Who did you talk to?

 

[Weimdogman]

So your a supporter of prescribed fire? Who did you talk to?

If I knew his name I would have given it.
Yes the prarie ecosystem was reliant on fire to maintain a healthy balance. The spread of Red Cedars wouldn't be happening if we had more fires.

 

[Weimdogman]

3car you seem pretty sharp in what you have posted about conservation practices.
What is your take on prescribed burns?

 

[3car]

3car you seem pretty sharp in what you have posted about conservation practices.
What is your take on prescribed burns?

I was actually happy to see someone sticking up for these prescribed fires? I usually don't see that on this forum. And my response is only "sharp" if you want to read it like that. Its one of the downfalls of typed conversations. I know those folks up there too. A few new guys and happy they are doing a good job spreading the work they do. Its always under appreciated. And what people forget about is when they aren't running prescribed fires on WPA's or refuges they are fighting wildfires either locally or on the big fires out west. I've been on fires with that crew were locals will berate them on the fire line almost to the point of law enforcement getting involved.

 

[Weimdogman]

I was actually happy to see someone sticking up for these prescribed fires? I usually don't see that on this forum. And my response is only "sharp" if you want to read it like that. Its one of the downfalls of typed conversations. I know those folks up there too. A few new guys and happy they are doing a good job spreading the work they do. Its always under appreciated. And what people forget about is when they aren't running prescribed fires on WPA's or refuges they are fighting wildfires either locally or on the big fires out west. I've been on fires with that crew were locals will berate them on the fire line almost to the point of law enforcement getting involved.

By sharp I meant intelligent but your reply proves your point about the typed word.

Why would locals be outraged about firebreaks?

 

[3car]

By sharp I meant intelligent but your reply proves your point about the typed word.

Why would locals be outraged about firebreaks?

lol touché. They assume the grass could be better used for cattle or their own good and really don't understand the benefits of fire in a grassland ecosystem. But in fact fire helps grassland nutrition for cattle as well. And of course when ever fire is on the landscape is scary for some.

 

[Prairie Drifter]

It is important that we, as hunters, don't put ourselves in a mindset that all grasslands should look like the heavy CRP grasslands we hunt during the winter normally. For a baby chick, that kind of cover can easily result in separation from the brood, inability to hunt for insects, too many opportunities to die from getting wet before they are old enough to maintain their body temperature, limited insect populations, and many more negative scenarios that reduce survival and recruitment of chicks into the fall population. Many grasslands are too far beyond the beneficial plant successional stage to serve as brood-rearing cover. Often this type of cover is the limiting factor that prevents the population from filling the fall/winter habitat.

 

[Weimdogman]

Keep in mind the thick crp isn't so thick in the spring and early summer.

 

[Weimdogman]

Ran across another WPA that was burned this spring. We have been dry so little undergrowth but nice clump grass bunches.

Had a little moisture recently so it is beginning to green up.

 

[TunaTunaFish]

lol touché. They assume the grass could be better used for cattle or their own good and really don't understand the benefits of fire in a grassland ecosystem. But in fact fire helps grassland nutrition for cattle as well. And of course when ever fire is on the landscape is scary for some.

I could be wrong but doesnt fire improve the grass for the cattle over the long run?

 

[TunaTunaFish]

I could be wrong but doesnt fire improve the grass for the cattle over the long run?

well I looked it up right after posting and the australian government thinks not lol: https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/fire/pasture-recovery-after-fire

I'm not sure though. I believe I've read about fire being good for pasture. Maybe just cause it clears out the scrubby stuff the cows won't eat? Fresh start, you know?

 

[3car]

well I looked it up right after posting and the australian government thinks not lol: https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/fire/pasture-recovery-after-fire

I'm not sure though. I believe I've read about fire being good for pasture. Maybe just cause it clears out the scrubby stuff the cows won't eat? Fresh start, you know?

A lot of it depends on the objectives, timing of the fire, how its lit and realistic expectations. Giant forest fires that are basically nuclear bombs going off can sterilize the soil. Those events are landscape altering for sure. Most Conservation agency burns try to back or flank most of the fire to help with litter reduction and setback cool season exotic grasses like brome and not just head fire the whole thing. The idea is to increase native plant diversity which will help wildlife and cattle forage but its not something that happens over night. Cattle and Fire are very important to grassland management but there is always a risk with fire. Fire costs money and can bring risks as we just saw this weekend. I evacuated a farm yard on Sunday because an old burn that a landowner did. It blew up 2 days later from 50mph winds.

 

[Prairie Drifter]

I could be wrong but doesnt fire improve the grass for the cattle over the long run?

In general, in the native warm season grasslands in the US, fires a good for not only the grass, but native forbs as well. Our grasslands evolved under the pressures of fire and grazing. The growth points of the grasses are at or below soil level as an adaptation to fire. Nutrients are recycled via fire and invasive plants that were not evolved under fire are generally set back. Many species of grassland obligate animal species are declining due to woody plant encroachment.

 

[Prairie Drifter]

well I looked it up right after posting and the australian government thinks not lol: https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/fire/pasture-recovery-after-fire

I'm not sure though. I believe I've read about fire being good for pasture. Maybe just cause it clears out the scrubby stuff the cows won't eat? Fresh start, you know?

In addition to what I had said above, after a fire the new growth can harvest all the sunlight. Nothing is shaded or obstructed by duff, old growth, etc. It is kind of a renewal for the adaptive species. Yes, there can be negatives. Generally, those are temporary. From a physical viewpoint, turning the ground black and removing almost all the vegetation does open the soil up to wind and sunlight. This does help to raise the soil temperature and dry the soil out. As the new growth comes in, those physical negatives are reduced.

If you look at overgrazing, some of the same physical negatives occur. Overgrazing is a function of time, not cattle numbers. Once a grass plant is bitten off, it must use nutrients in it's roots to re-grow a new top. Cattle select that for their next bite, so the plant takes more from the roots. If this is done over time, the taller plants will eventually die and be replaced by shorter species. Those shorter species not only don't protect the soil as well (allowing wind and sun to hit more of the surface), but they also don't produce as much tonnage as the taller species.

Over time, that pasture will not support the same number of cattle it did before. All too often, the livestock manager keeps doing the same thing with the same number of cattle and that piece of ground spirals down on productivity and health. Far too many non-local land owners rent their ground with no controls to prevent this scenario. The current renter keeps doing what he's doing until it is not profitable then drops the rented ground to go elsewhere and the cycle begins with a new cattleman. Having a take 50%/ leave 50% goal allows those plants to recover (rest) before being grazed again, and a fire mixed in makes all the plants (within a species) more similar nutritionally so the cattle end up grazing plants they didn't the year before and some of the stressed plants for the year before get rested.

 

[birddude]

40 + years ago I read an article about how the first white people thought the Indians were cruel for burning parts of the prairie grasses and killing some animals that ran out. It was years later when they found out it was to promote new generation. That's when I realized why I was finding quail in old hog pens and cow lots. Then a few years latter some of the local farmers signed up for what I guess was an early form of the crp program. I'm not sure why but a lot of them had plowed and disced down the fields but didn't plant it. O.M.G that was my first big year. I don't remember how many I shot that year, but I do remember that myself and two buddies shot 21 before noon in nothing but those fields that had grown up in mostly foxtail. Early succession is what it's called now but very, very little around here now.

 

[Prairie Drifter]

If you think about CRP a bit. If you are not in a rainfall belt of over 30 inches per year, those first 3-7 years after the CRP was planted were the very best years. This is due to the lower plant successional stages that the planting went through before the NWSG became dominant. If you think about quail in a historic context (because pheasants weren't here yet), those populations before the plow were probably cyclic based on the most recent disturbance. Those disturbances were thousands of bison camping on a spot, tearing it up, and moving on; or the passing of a wildfire and the herbaceous evolution behind it. Both these disturbances resulted in the boom and bust cycles of the time.

 

[birddude]

If you think about CRP a bit. If you are not in a rainfall belt of over 30 inches per year, those first 3-7 years after the CRP was planted were the very best years. This is due to the lower plant successional stages that the planting went through before the NWSG became dominant. If you think about quail in a historic context (because pheasants weren't here yet), those populations before the plow were probably cyclic based on the most recent disturbance. Those disturbances were thousands of bison camping on a spot, tearing it up, and moving on; or the passing of a wildfire and the herbaceous evolution behind it. Both these disturbances resulted in the boom and bust cycles of the time.

Exactly, and in the 20's to 40's fields were still being cleared the hard way. By the time the trees were felled, burned for heat and stumps removed could be years, therefore almost every field was ringed with new generation, not to mention the number of wild grasses and legumes coming up in the row crops. Then from the 50's to 70's most pastures were rotated, there were still waterways. Weed patches were still common. Now most farmers own at least a backhoe, and several have track hoes and dozers. Add in roundup and pesticides and well you know. And I still hear people blame it on predators. It's not the landowners or farmer's fault, it raises there yields and land value. It's just a shame.

 

[Weimdogman]

Exactly, and in the 20's to 40's fields were still being cleared the hard way. By the time the trees were felled, burned for heat and stumps removed could be years, therefore almost every field was ringed with new generation, not to mention the number of wild grasses and legumes coming up in the row crops. Then from the 50's to 70's most pastures were rotated, there were still waterways. Weed patches were still common. Now most farmers own at least a backhoe, and several have track hoes and dozers. Add in roundup and pesticides and well you know. And I still hear people blame it on predators. It's not the landowners or farmer's fault, it raises there yields and land value. It's just a shame.

Precision ag is supposed to address some of these issues as clearing land and tiling does not always payoff.

 

[Prairie Drifter]

If we take precision ag one step further and idle unproductive acres, there is where we could get some improvement for our birds. Turning those acres into continuous CRP would help.