Sit vs Sit/Stay

outdoorslife89

New member
Question for you guys and gals. Would love to hear your opinion on this vs mine...

Remi is doing great with all of the commands she has been shown so far:

Come
Sit
Kennel
Down
Place
Huntemup

Now this leads me to the question: Do you add stay to your command list?

I am following Tom Dokkens methods and he stresses this is very impt. I am NOT disagreeing with him of course but do I need to teach it? My line of thinking is sit means sit...until I say ok. Typically, I can walk a good distance away from her while just instilling sit command and reinforcing sit when/if needed as a reminder until l I give the come command. It is working for us pretty well.

Am I hurting our training if I skip the stay command? I see lots of programs, lots of different ideas and opinions. Some are similar some are not. That leads me to believe why I feel skipping stay(shes only a little over 3 months so we could add if need be), would not hurt us. What do you think?
 

outdoorslife89

New member
Also Id like to add another thought to this...

I am not sure if I am going to teach steady to wing/shot. IF, I do...when you teach your dog to do this, you are getting her to sit and stay...not just sit not just stay. So again, sit means sit(and stay) until told otherwise. Wrong? Right?
 

Gatzby

Member
Just teach sit. I'm sure there is little in harm teaching stay but it doesn't accomplish anything more than sit does. I think saying "stay" is more psychological for the handler than anything.
Have your dog sit before opening the front door, or at feeding time. When your ready for them to go out release them with "OK" or whatever command you want. Put their food dish down and release them to eat when your ready, vary how long you make them wait. Also "OK" is regularly used in normal conversation "all done" is probably a better choice. If you have multiple dogs I would release them on their name. This is really handy if you only want to let one dog out the front door.
I do sort of teach "wait", I will say this when opening kennel doors or if I want the dog to wait on the tailgate to put his collar on. I only do this for the first few months and then it happens automatic.
 

A5 Sweet 16

Member
For me, "sit" includes "stay" but not vice versa. Often, I don't particularly care whether he sits or not, but I need him to stay put. Thus, "stay". My dogs have never seemed confused by this, & I'm thankful I can command what I mean. If I don't mean sit (and don't care one way or the other), why command it? Others will say I should have higher standards & sit my dog any time I want him to stay. It's just not necessary for me.
 

Gatzby

Member
For me, "sit" includes "stay" but not vice versa. Often, I don't particularly care whether he sits or not, but I need him to stay put. Thus, "stay". My dogs have never seemed confused by this, & I'm thankful I can command what I mean. If I don't mean sit (and don't care one way or the other), why command it? Others will say I should have higher standards & sit my dog any time I want him to stay. It's just not necessary for me.
Not arguing with you and I'm glad this works for you. Serious question if you put the dog in a stay and he decides to sit to be more comfortable would consider this be disobedient?
 

outdoorslife89

New member
Just teach sit. I'm sure there is little in harm teaching stay but it doesn't accomplish anything more than sit does. I think saying "stay" is more psychological for the handler than anything.
Have your dog sit before opening the front door, or at feeding time. When your ready for them to go out release them with "OK" or whatever command you want. Put their food dish down and release them to eat when your ready, vary how long you make them wait. Also "OK" is regularly used in normal conversation "all done" is probably a better choice. If you have multiple dogs I would release them on their name. This is really handy if you only want to let one dog out the front door.
I do sort of teach "wait", I will say this when opening kennel doors or if I want the dog to wait on the tailgate to put his collar on. I only do this for the first few months and then it happens automatic.
Thanks for the reply Gatzby! I think I am going to stick with just sit. I have been doing some of the things you have mentioned too. We do have Remi sit at the front door and when the door opens she goes in and sits again to remove the leash. Then I give the ok command. Same with her food. She sits until we put the bowl down, continues to sit until released with ok. She gets so excited with her food that I don't make her comply for any long period of time although this may increase as her attn. span does too. Longer sit for removing the leash. I have been using "ok" a lot and don't think Im going to change that command although I have seen that mentioned a few times in my last couple days of research. I think thats "ok" ? No pun intended lol. Last night I did 3 retrieves with her, a short break and back to 3 more retrieves. She wanted more so we stopped. Keeping her hungry for more. The last 3 retrieves, I threw the bumper and had her sit until released. She did really well for an excited pup! I don't know if I should push that too hard right now but it did make me think/lean more towards sitting to flush on command in the future.

Ill add...She is doing well with leash training. She sits, comes, place and kennel with the leash. Down is taking her a little getting used to still as she is relying on my hand movement to show her down. Once she gets passed that Im going to start incorporating the whistle. I figure by the time all of this is picked up pretty much perfectly by Remi, itll be time for some e collar with leash training. I make her wear the e collar for training(not using it at all right now, just getting her used to wearing it).

For your "wait" command...maybe Im getting carried away here but Im thinking to use "sit" for instances like that as that could just be a synonym for "stay" ? My line of thinking could be wrong here but that's my first reaction in thought of that. Interesting though and you've got my wheels turning if I should use that
 

outdoorslife89

New member
For me, "sit" includes "stay" but not vice versa. Often, I don't particularly care whether he sits or not, but I need him to stay put. Thus, "stay". My dogs have never seemed confused by this, & I'm thankful I can command what I mean. If I don't mean sit (and don't care one way or the other), why command it? Others will say I should have higher standards & sit my dog any time I want him to stay. It's just not necessary for me.
A5 thanks for the reply! I can see your line of thinking there. Question: Is there a time where you want him to stay and sitting down isn't feasible?

What Im thinking is: Remi sit...sit...sit(and stay until told otherwise - ok!) instead of Remi sit...stay...stay. This may be one of those "half a dozen in one hand/half a dozen in the other" type subjects. No right or wrong, just trainer preference?

Im sure there are always going to be others that don't agree with what we all do. Its inevitable. I respect others opinions whether I agree or not. Im not one of those "oh I don't agree, he is wrong or I don't like him now" type guy, which seems to be many of those around! lol
 

Gatzby

Member
Thanks for the reply Gatzby! I think I am going to stick with just sit. I have been doing some of the things you have mentioned too. We do have Remi sit at the front door and when the door opens she goes in and sits again to remove the leash. Then I give the ok command. Same with her food. She sits until we put the bowl down, continues to sit until released with ok. She gets so excited with her food that I don't make her comply for any long period of time although this may increase as her attn. span does too. Longer sit for removing the leash. I have been using "ok" a lot and don't think Im going to change that command although I have seen that mentioned a few times in my last couple days of research. I think thats "ok" ? No pun intended lol. Last night I did 3 retrieves with her, a short break and back to 3 more retrieves. She wanted more so we stopped. Keeping her hungry for more. The last 3 retrieves, I threw the bumper and had her sit until released. She did really well for an excited pup! I don't know if I should push that too hard right now but it did make me think/lean more towards sitting to flush on command in the future.

Ill add...She is doing well with leash training. She sits, comes, place and kennel with the leash. Down is taking her a little getting used to still as she is relying on my hand movement to show her down. Once she gets passed that Im going to start incorporating the whistle. I figure by the time all of this is picked up pretty much perfectly by Remi, itll be time for some e collar with leash training. I make her wear the e collar for training(not using it at all right now, just getting her used to wearing it).

For your "wait" command...maybe Im getting carried away here but Im thinking to use "sit" for instances like that as that could just be a synonym for "stay" ? My line of thinking could be wrong here but that's my first reaction in thought of that. Interesting though and you've got my wheels turning if I should use that[/QUOTE

My use of wait is less of a command and more of a soothing/calming thing to help a young pup not bust out of his kennel when the door opens or bail off the tailgate.

I was having a hard time coming up with a reason to use stay while standing instead of having them sit. But when my dogs are on the tailgate I like them standing to put on their e-collar as I have a hard time reaching them when they're sitting. I don't use stay as they're conditioned to just stand there waiting for the collar but in effect that's what I've trained. I learned something new today.
 

A5 Sweet 16

Member
Not arguing with you and I'm glad this works for you. Serious question if you put the dog in a stay and he decides to sit to be more comfortable would consider this be disobedient?
If I've commanded him to both "stay" & "stand", then yes, if he sits he gets in trouble. ;););) That's a joke. No, of course not. As long as he stays, he can sit, stand, lie down, or whatever.
 

A5 Sweet 16

Member
A5 thanks for the reply! I can see your line of thinking there. Question: Is there a time where you want him to stay and sitting down isn't feasible?

What Im thinking is: Remi sit...sit...sit(and stay until told otherwise - ok!) instead of Remi sit...stay...stay. This may be one of those "half a dozen in one hand/half a dozen in the other" type subjects. No right or wrong, just trainer preference?
I think I know what you're getting at. Feasible?? I think sitting is almost always feasible. There are lots of times, though, that I just don't give a rip if he sits or not. Thus "stay". When I command "sit" it's not followed w/ "stay". As I said, "sit" means put your butt on the ground & stay put. Works for us.
 

outdoorslife89

New member
I think I know what you're getting at. Feasible?? I think sitting is almost always feasible. There are lots of times, though, that I just don't give a rip if he sits or not. Thus "stay". When I command "sit" it's not followed w/ "stay". As I said, "sit" means put your butt on the ground & stay put. Works for us.
Awesome and makes sense to me! Wheels are turning...

In regards to "feasible" I was seeing if you came up with/or had a situation/instance where the dog was not physically able to...ya never know and am always looking to learn :thumbsup:
 

A5 Sweet 16

Member
Awesome and makes sense to me! Wheels are turning...

In regards to "feasible" I was seeing if you came up with/or had a situation/instance where the dog was not physically able to...ya never know and am always looking to learn :thumbsup:
There are plenty of times when I think to sit would just be absurd, yet I need him to stay. Like if he's in water, muck, or 12" of powdery snow. I wouldn't want my butt in it, so why would I make him stick his in it? Especially when all I need is for him to stay?

Most of the time, though, I just don't need him to sit. Some guys do & probably for some good reasons. When I taught my kids to "stay there", I didn't demand that they kneel every time.
 

jonnyB

Active member
Question for you guys and gals. Would love to hear your opinion on this vs mine...

Remi is doing great with all of the commands she has been shown so far:

Come
Sit
Kennel
Down
Place
Huntemup

Now this leads me to the question: Do you add stay to your command list?

I am following Tom Dokkens methods and he stresses this is very impt. I am NOT disagreeing with him of course but do I need to teach it? My line of thinking is sit means sit...until I say ok. Typically, I can walk a good distance away from her while just instilling sit command and reinforcing sit when/if needed as a reminder until l I give the come command. It is working for us pretty well.

Am I hurting our training if I skip the stay command? I see lots of programs, lots of different ideas and opinions. Some are similar some are not. That leads me to believe why I feel skipping stay(shes only a little over 3 months so we could add if need be), would not hurt us. What do you think?
I do use "stay" when he's pointing, or about to point. This is a Golden Ret. not a pointer, so it doesn't come naturally.

We hunted a (preserve) on Monday and he pointed 8 times. Obviously, the birds are dumb and don't move until kicked.

During my training (on going!) I have not been as strict with the sit, down commands - he does break on an occasion. If I'm really adamant about the dog staying put, I use sit and follow with stay.

Not perfect, but it seems to work for us...
 

outdoorslife89

New member
Thanks for the replies guys...

Good points A-5 and jonnyB. This topic is really starting to influence me(for good reasons not just because I want or don't want to) on introducing "stay". Many good points made here.

Any tips/tricks on introducing this command or just the typical giving a reward/praise after she listens/obeys the command? Of course, Ill go back to my book and dvd and see what Dokkens does. I didn't pay this much attn. at first because of what I was originally thinking(and we are not in a rush/race) but if you guys have any info towards this subject and retrievers that would be greatly appreciated.
 

jonnyB

Active member
Thanks for the replies guys...

Good points A-5 and jonnyB. This topic is really starting to influence me(for good reasons not just because I want or don't want to) on introducing "stay". Many good points made here.

Any tips/tricks on introducing this command or just the typical giving a reward/praise after she listens/obeys the command? Of course, Ill go back to my book and dvd and see what Dokkens does. I didn't pay this much attn. at first because of what I was originally thinking(and we are not in a rush/race) but if you guys have any info towards this subject and retrievers that would be greatly appreciated.
I've seen Dokken's dogs at the Sportshow - they do well and he has a thriving dog-training business. Have had one dog trained by him and two others trained by former Dokken trainers.

My dogs were through the "puppy program" - intro to the gun and birds, not any obedience. I'm sure you won't go too far astray by following his training methods, he seems to get results.

Most of the obedience stuff is employed around the home - sit, stay et al. The real test is when you are hunting and want obedience: come, whoa, other commands and hand signals.

It's all in degrees: how much of a robot do you want? How important is it to have a super-obedient dog? And how much patience do you have?

Good luck with your new puppy!
 

jonnyB

Active member
There are plenty of times when I think to sit would just be absurd, yet I need him to stay. Like if he's in water, muck, or 12" of powdery snow. I wouldn't want my butt in it, so why would I make him stick his in it? Especially when all I need is for him to stay?

Most of the time, though, I just don't need him to sit. Some guys do & probably for some good reasons. When I taught my kids to "stay there", I didn't demand that they kneel every time.
"didn't demand they kneel"...funny analogy!
 

519vx

New member
Most of the obedience stuff is employed around the home - sit, stay et al. The real test is when you are hunting and want obedience: come, whoa, other commands and hand signals.

It's all in degrees: how much of a robot do you want? How important is it to have a super-obedient dog? And how much patience do you have?

I couldn't agree more! Lost my golden last may and am in the process of training another Golden now. Patience is so critical...and I find me reminding myself of that. All dogs are different. The one I have now is super high energy with a somewhat short attention span. Makes training challenging, but she is starting to come around.

I use sit and stay commands. Her (my dog Storm) instinct is to follow me if I just tell her to sit next to me and I walk off. Telling her to stay allows me to leave her side and she stays put. I guess a guy could train that just the word sit means sit and stay...it's all in what works for you. Training a dog is as much about training the trainer as it is about training the dog.
 

jonnyB

Active member
I couldn't agree more! Lost my golden last may and am in the process of training another Golden now. Patience is so critical...and I find me reminding myself of that. All dogs are different. The one I have now is super high energy with a somewhat short attention span. Makes training challenging, but she is starting to come around.

I use sit and stay commands. Her (my dog Storm) instinct is to follow me if I just tell her to sit next to me and I walk off. Telling her to stay allows me to leave her side and she stays put. I guess a guy could train that just the word sit means sit and stay...it's all in what works for you. Training a dog is as much about training the trainer as it is about training the dog.
Finally got someone to agree...thanks! Just kidding a bit. Where did you find your dog? Wisconsin breeder? Curious...

My Golden, at 6.5 tender years still is very plugged-in. We go through the same routine when he wants out: dog does cartwheels in anticipation, owner insists the dog sits and waits 20 seconds until I get my coat on.

This never seems to change, even though we've gone through this routine many times. Trainer has failed, dog is stupid - maybe both are true!!
 

outdoorslife89

New member
"didn't demand they kneel"...funny analogy!
I thought so too and that one hit home a little, lol!


Well guys, I think Im going to use the stay command. The replies made perfect sense to me and we started on it last night. On the third try I was able to walk 7/8 yards away until I released her and she got rewarded. I also did it with her food and she waited/stayed, albeit with a few reminders just because of her excitement at that time. I will keep this in our training regimen moving forward.

Thanks for ALL of the replies here, you were all a tremendous help!
 

519vx

New member
One more thought for you that's worked wonders for me...before you start the more "formal" training sessions, toss a ball or kong or whatever for 5 or 10 minutes for your pup. I do that with mine and it really makes a huge difference - it takes away a good portion of the extra energy that results in them bouncing all over and not concentrating. Once they are just a bit tired, then start your lesson. Try it...
 
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