Wind River
Well-known member
Civilized hell, if you crippled a bird you half killed it. Only one reason you carry a gun when hunting. Stay home and hunt on a video, you can release them that way and avoid cripples.
Shooting Woes - Help Needed
- Thread starter walk213
- Start date
BritChaser
Well-known member
Your dogs work great. I think with flushers which yours are essentially, though they kind of point sometimes, you'll be better off with one dog afield at a time. There's too much going on with two flushers. With one dog you can stay right with it and be in a better shot position for a flush. As it is, your shots are rushed. Also, stop speaking and making other noises afield. It's putting the birds on high alert so that when they flush it is in fear for their lives at all out speed, plus they may stay put longer for closer flushes. Instead, control your dog with an e-collar, hand signals, and/or "whoa" which may take some training. Good luck!
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Matt D
Well-known member
That sounds Gucci
walk213
Active member
I will say "kill" or "dispatch" as long as the bird folds on contact.
remy3424
Well-known member
Maybe it is just too many distractions, try using one dog and dump the camera, you have created too much stuff going on. I am not sure what is with the new trend of recording and posting your hunts these days. Maybe cameras have got smaller and cheaper. Kind of like buying a GSP collar instead of watching your dog. Tech gadgets.
walk213
Active member
Appreciate your insights. Have your lessons produced results?
walk213
Active member
I have been recording my hunts for a long time. Nothing formal. I enjoy watching my adventures with my dogs.
walk213
Active member
I appreciate the comments. I do agree that hunting with both girls has been distracting. I find myself confused on who to follow when we find more than bird. I don't know if I can leave 1 in the truck with being overwhelmed with guilt. Advice taken.
walk213
Active member
Good advice. I did notice that I seemed shocked with the flush even though my dogs told me that the bird was close. It's a weird feeling that has not hit me before.
walk213
Active member
On it. Thank you.
Limitless
Well-known member
I have one of these in red and one in green. Either would work for the above drill too.
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
I don't know how everyone else shoots, but I am much slower at pulling the trigger than walk213. He looks rushed and pulling the trigger way too quick for me. My entire hunting career, I have shouldered the gun on every hawk, sparrow, black bird, meadowlark, and follow with the bead pretending it is a pheasant. I also shoot a lot doves. 211 this past year. I generally only take 2 boxes of shells for each hunt. We always see how few of shells it takes to get our limit. I won't miss but about 2 or 3 pheasants the entire year. This year I bagged 20 birds.
dustin mudd
Well-known member
Hi Gil Ash will be in Bennett Colorado teaching a seminar on many of the topics folks have shared above , he does it in a logical way after listening to your goals individually. IMO the one day course will not gain you a full spectrum of knowledge and muscle memory, consider the two day course .he will be in your neighborhood may 2-4. He teaches only 5 students at a time. Sign up early .!!!
Limitless
Well-known member
I watched the video a few times. I am absolutely not a shooting expert, so take this with a grain of salt. But I do know how to miss birds. I am a bona fide, certified expert in that! 
To me, it looked like you missed right, low, behind, low, low, unknown. Because of the angle of the camera vs the angle of the barrel, those low guesses could have been shooting high, especially if you have your gun tilted up (cheek not down on the comb).
Some good analysis and advice in here. I'll just echo some of it:
- Proper mount seems to be the main issue. Can't hit them if the gun isn't pointed accurately.
- Rushing the shots, and possibly devolving into snap shots rather than sustained lead (which appears to be what method of lead you are using).
- If you shot the same gun well for years, and nothing else has changed, then it may be as simple as slowing down. Besides the advice given of periodically mounting the gun *while hunting*, and looking down the barrel to ensure it is flat and you are not sighting left or right, I use visualization to help me. I visualize what it will look like when a bird flushes and what I will do (mount properly and take my time on the shots), I do this periodically throughout the hunt. When the dog gets birdy, I mentally remind myself that I am going to take my time on my shots, and lead appropriately. When I am tired, after a lot of hiking, tough cover or weather conditions, or tired after multiple days in a row of hunting, my mount suffers and my ability to follow my mental game plan suffers. I have to really force myself to mentally be ready when I am tired.
- Regarding sustained lead... If that is what you use and it works for you, great. I can't remember if you said that you do practice with clay pigeons. That can be a good way to see which method of lead works best for you. I find when I shoot sustained lead, especially on real birds, I can get off the line (off the flight path of the bird). I use a modified pull ahead lead method (get on the bird, pull ahead, maintain the lead I want, and pull the trigger). I am not suggesting that method, but you may want to test how you do with sustained lead vs regular pull ahead lead on clay pigeons. With either pull ahead or my modified pull ahead, I stay on the line of the bird better than I do with sustained lead. I personally don't even try the swing through method on live pheasants due to the acceleration and flight path changes they present vs the consistency of a clay pigeons. But if that works for you better than the other methods, then great.
When I have tested these various methods of lead at the trap range, with my hunting clothes on, and the gun held like I do when hunting, I shoot best with my modified pull ahead, next best with regular pull ahead, and next best with sustained lead. When I shoot subconsciously/instinctively, I often regress to sustained lead and a faster shot. When I shoot with purpose, and use the method I know works best for me, I have better results. I will say that I may consciously choose sustained lead if I need to make a shot faster due to obstacles, a bird I don't want to get into thicker cover, etc. It takes longer, for me, to shoot pull ahead or modified pull ahead, hence the switch when I need to shoot faster.
If you want to watch an excellent example of measured, careful, pull ahead shooting, on pheasants, watch some of the videos @A5 Sweet 16 posts on here and on his YouTube channel (lilbrowhydaw). (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2TOA0kZDAwN97I-Q-APaqA/videos) He has one of the flushiest flushers ever to flush, yet his mount and shooting method are almost always calm and consistent. Even if sustained lead is what works best for you, a careful flow similar to his will reduce snap shots and allow you to get the lead you know is best, vs whatever lead you happen to have when your fingers overrule your brain. (Something I have oodles of experience with.)
- I think it is great that you record your hunts, that you hunt both dogs at the same time, and that you talk to your dogs. Often, people who don't use these cameras don't realize that they have a wide field of view. The birds you were shooting at were much closer than how it looks on the video, as I am sure you well know. In other words, you are getting plenty close to the birds. That's probably why you were extra frustrated by the misses. Yes, two dogs means having your head on a swivel sometimes, but it can also mean more shooting opportunities.
The level of volume you were using isn't going to make any measurable difference in how close you get to the birds. You weren't yelling at the dogs. It is actually a perfect example of how talking does not matter. You can't sneak up on an animal that can hear the brush of a piece of grass against your pants, upwind, 60+ yards away. They knew you were there before you uttered a word. The video title clearly states that these were only the misses that day. You are getting on a good number of birds. That isn't a problem to correct. Keep doing whatever you are doing to get that many opportunities.
Most of all, have fun! I'd rather have half a dozen misses and be out with my companion(s), in nature, than to not be hunting. It looks like you are succeeding in that department. Well done!
To me, it looked like you missed right, low, behind, low, low, unknown. Because of the angle of the camera vs the angle of the barrel, those low guesses could have been shooting high, especially if you have your gun tilted up (cheek not down on the comb).
Some good analysis and advice in here. I'll just echo some of it:
- Proper mount seems to be the main issue. Can't hit them if the gun isn't pointed accurately.
- Rushing the shots, and possibly devolving into snap shots rather than sustained lead (which appears to be what method of lead you are using).
- If you shot the same gun well for years, and nothing else has changed, then it may be as simple as slowing down. Besides the advice given of periodically mounting the gun *while hunting*, and looking down the barrel to ensure it is flat and you are not sighting left or right, I use visualization to help me. I visualize what it will look like when a bird flushes and what I will do (mount properly and take my time on the shots), I do this periodically throughout the hunt. When the dog gets birdy, I mentally remind myself that I am going to take my time on my shots, and lead appropriately. When I am tired, after a lot of hiking, tough cover or weather conditions, or tired after multiple days in a row of hunting, my mount suffers and my ability to follow my mental game plan suffers. I have to really force myself to mentally be ready when I am tired.
- Regarding sustained lead... If that is what you use and it works for you, great. I can't remember if you said that you do practice with clay pigeons. That can be a good way to see which method of lead works best for you. I find when I shoot sustained lead, especially on real birds, I can get off the line (off the flight path of the bird). I use a modified pull ahead lead method (get on the bird, pull ahead, maintain the lead I want, and pull the trigger). I am not suggesting that method, but you may want to test how you do with sustained lead vs regular pull ahead lead on clay pigeons. With either pull ahead or my modified pull ahead, I stay on the line of the bird better than I do with sustained lead. I personally don't even try the swing through method on live pheasants due to the acceleration and flight path changes they present vs the consistency of a clay pigeons. But if that works for you better than the other methods, then great.
When I have tested these various methods of lead at the trap range, with my hunting clothes on, and the gun held like I do when hunting, I shoot best with my modified pull ahead, next best with regular pull ahead, and next best with sustained lead. When I shoot subconsciously/instinctively, I often regress to sustained lead and a faster shot. When I shoot with purpose, and use the method I know works best for me, I have better results. I will say that I may consciously choose sustained lead if I need to make a shot faster due to obstacles, a bird I don't want to get into thicker cover, etc. It takes longer, for me, to shoot pull ahead or modified pull ahead, hence the switch when I need to shoot faster.
If you want to watch an excellent example of measured, careful, pull ahead shooting, on pheasants, watch some of the videos @A5 Sweet 16 posts on here and on his YouTube channel (lilbrowhydaw). (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2TOA0kZDAwN97I-Q-APaqA/videos) He has one of the flushiest flushers ever to flush, yet his mount and shooting method are almost always calm and consistent. Even if sustained lead is what works best for you, a careful flow similar to his will reduce snap shots and allow you to get the lead you know is best, vs whatever lead you happen to have when your fingers overrule your brain. (Something I have oodles of experience with.)
- I think it is great that you record your hunts, that you hunt both dogs at the same time, and that you talk to your dogs. Often, people who don't use these cameras don't realize that they have a wide field of view. The birds you were shooting at were much closer than how it looks on the video, as I am sure you well know. In other words, you are getting plenty close to the birds. That's probably why you were extra frustrated by the misses. Yes, two dogs means having your head on a swivel sometimes, but it can also mean more shooting opportunities.
The level of volume you were using isn't going to make any measurable difference in how close you get to the birds. You weren't yelling at the dogs. It is actually a perfect example of how talking does not matter. You can't sneak up on an animal that can hear the brush of a piece of grass against your pants, upwind, 60+ yards away. They knew you were there before you uttered a word. The video title clearly states that these were only the misses that day. You are getting on a good number of birds. That isn't a problem to correct. Keep doing whatever you are doing to get that many opportunities.
Most of all, have fun! I'd rather have half a dozen misses and be out with my companion(s), in nature, than to not be hunting. It looks like you are succeeding in that department. Well done!
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A5 Sweet 16
Well-known member
A lot of what has been mentioned already is good stuff. Gun fit. Practice shooting (even lessons if you want). Correct, consistent mount. Etc.
I'm no shotgunning expert, but every target is different. Sporting clays are different than trap are different than pheasants are different than waterfowl are different than doves... I'm pretty proficient these days when it comes to pheasants. Here are some reasons, in no particular order, I think that is. Maybe one or 2 of these will ring a bell or spark something.
1. I'm confident in my gun's performance & that the shells I shoot will "kill" a pheasant to the extent of my reasonable ability to hit a bird.
2. I'm confident my dog will most likely recover almost any pheasant I shoot, regardless of the terrain/cover. During my mount & shot, I'm not worrying about recovery at all. I spent years hunting with no dog, & I KNOW it was on my mind much of the time back then.
3. Straight-aways are another story, but otherwise, I'm confident in my ability to kill a pheasant out to 50 yds. Inside 35-40 yards, I really expect to kill almost every one. I don't, but I expect to. If you're confident, you'll shoot better.
4. I try to pay 120% attention to my dog. I try to keep him in range. Some of that involves my keeping up with him. And I'm continually positioning myself (in relation to him) where I think I'm most likely to get the best shot. Doing these things allows me to SEE a flush as soon as possible, so I don't start the process surprised, behind, & flustered. The sooner I see a rooster, the more time I have, the more confidence, & the better my brain sees the actual flight path. Really SEEING the bird is paramount. Some people recommend focussing on the beak or head or white ring. Yeah, I've never really tried that very much. Unless you're shooting at a preserve frequently, I'd argue there's no time in hunting situations to practice that enough to get good at it. I see the bird & focus on the bird.
5. I carry my gun "ready" (port arms) almost 100% of the time. I'll take a 20-35 yard shot over a 45-60 yard shot every time.
6. I've got a good, consistent gun mount. My gun fits. I've practiced enough that a perfect mount is 2nd nature. Sometimes I screw it up, but not often.
7. My clothing is important to me. I err on the side of less than more, especially with gloves. I consider comfort & my ability to shoot while I'm choosing my fashion statement. Early in the season, my gun fits with a slip on butt pad. When I bulk up the fashion, I remove the butt pad. I figure it does no good being warm if I can't shoot. So if shooting pheasants means getting cold, then I guess I'll be cold. But there are ways around that sometimes too. Find my thoughts on hunting ditches (in SD).
8. My dogs & I have flushed 1000s & 1000s of pheasants. I've done it so much that I'm no longer (there are still exceptions) surprised/flustered by a flush. According to my videos, almost all my shots are made within 1.5 seconds of the moment the flush begins. That's see it. Get your feet set. Mount your gun. Shoot the bird. There are plenty of times within that 1.5 seconds that I literally think, "OK. I've got time here." It feels easy, controlled, & almost slow (slow isn't that common). But the video shows a VERY quick mount, pull ahead, & 1.3 seconds into the whole thing, I've shot the rooster. And it even looks controlled to me in the video. I've just done it that many times.
9. My point, I guess, is hunt, hunt, hunt. You'll get better at finding pheasants & getting shots at them. And the more shots you get, more will eventually be at 1.2-1.7 seconds into the flush, rather than 0.5. As I see it, pheasant hunters go in stages. First they have to learn to be quick enough to get a shot off (which takes time). Once they've gotten good at that, they have to reverse it & figure out how to not rush their shots, in order to make the 1st shot the best one. A shot 0.5-1.0 second into the flush is almost never your best shot (unless you're seriously pressed for time). The vast majority of birds I shoot at flush at less than 15 yds. Most of them are going away at one angle or another, so I have to be reasonably quick about things, because a 40-50 yard shot usually isn't my best shot either. Be quick, but not too quick, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
10. Oh, & shoot when it feels right. Don't wait, thinking a bird is too close. Most of the time it's not. Don't allow your mind to get into the shot any more than you already have. I shoot my share of close pheasants, with a full choke the last 2 years & MOD up until then, & I very, very rarely shoot up a bird to the point it's unusable.
I'm no shotgunning expert, but every target is different. Sporting clays are different than trap are different than pheasants are different than waterfowl are different than doves... I'm pretty proficient these days when it comes to pheasants. Here are some reasons, in no particular order, I think that is. Maybe one or 2 of these will ring a bell or spark something.
1. I'm confident in my gun's performance & that the shells I shoot will "kill" a pheasant to the extent of my reasonable ability to hit a bird.
2. I'm confident my dog will most likely recover almost any pheasant I shoot, regardless of the terrain/cover. During my mount & shot, I'm not worrying about recovery at all. I spent years hunting with no dog, & I KNOW it was on my mind much of the time back then.
3. Straight-aways are another story, but otherwise, I'm confident in my ability to kill a pheasant out to 50 yds. Inside 35-40 yards, I really expect to kill almost every one. I don't, but I expect to. If you're confident, you'll shoot better.
4. I try to pay 120% attention to my dog. I try to keep him in range. Some of that involves my keeping up with him. And I'm continually positioning myself (in relation to him) where I think I'm most likely to get the best shot. Doing these things allows me to SEE a flush as soon as possible, so I don't start the process surprised, behind, & flustered. The sooner I see a rooster, the more time I have, the more confidence, & the better my brain sees the actual flight path. Really SEEING the bird is paramount. Some people recommend focussing on the beak or head or white ring. Yeah, I've never really tried that very much. Unless you're shooting at a preserve frequently, I'd argue there's no time in hunting situations to practice that enough to get good at it. I see the bird & focus on the bird.
5. I carry my gun "ready" (port arms) almost 100% of the time. I'll take a 20-35 yard shot over a 45-60 yard shot every time.
6. I've got a good, consistent gun mount. My gun fits. I've practiced enough that a perfect mount is 2nd nature. Sometimes I screw it up, but not often.
7. My clothing is important to me. I err on the side of less than more, especially with gloves. I consider comfort & my ability to shoot while I'm choosing my fashion statement. Early in the season, my gun fits with a slip on butt pad. When I bulk up the fashion, I remove the butt pad. I figure it does no good being warm if I can't shoot. So if shooting pheasants means getting cold, then I guess I'll be cold. But there are ways around that sometimes too. Find my thoughts on hunting ditches (in SD).
8. My dogs & I have flushed 1000s & 1000s of pheasants. I've done it so much that I'm no longer (there are still exceptions) surprised/flustered by a flush. According to my videos, almost all my shots are made within 1.5 seconds of the moment the flush begins. That's see it. Get your feet set. Mount your gun. Shoot the bird. There are plenty of times within that 1.5 seconds that I literally think, "OK. I've got time here." It feels easy, controlled, & almost slow (slow isn't that common). But the video shows a VERY quick mount, pull ahead, & 1.3 seconds into the whole thing, I've shot the rooster. And it even looks controlled to me in the video. I've just done it that many times.
9. My point, I guess, is hunt, hunt, hunt. You'll get better at finding pheasants & getting shots at them. And the more shots you get, more will eventually be at 1.2-1.7 seconds into the flush, rather than 0.5. As I see it, pheasant hunters go in stages. First they have to learn to be quick enough to get a shot off (which takes time). Once they've gotten good at that, they have to reverse it & figure out how to not rush their shots, in order to make the 1st shot the best one. A shot 0.5-1.0 second into the flush is almost never your best shot (unless you're seriously pressed for time). The vast majority of birds I shoot at flush at less than 15 yds. Most of them are going away at one angle or another, so I have to be reasonably quick about things, because a 40-50 yard shot usually isn't my best shot either. Be quick, but not too quick, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
10. Oh, & shoot when it feels right. Don't wait, thinking a bird is too close. Most of the time it's not. Don't allow your mind to get into the shot any more than you already have. I shoot my share of close pheasants, with a full choke the last 2 years & MOD up until then, & I very, very rarely shoot up a bird to the point it's unusable.
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remy3424
Well-known member
A5s #4 and #5, in my opinion, are the most important things you can do (watch the dog and be ready). I would add pheasants are much easier to shoot inside of 30 yards using an IC choke, particularly if you are not a super shot (which is me). I think most of my shooting is inside of 40 yards (mostly due to the IC choke) and if is isn't, it is likely my 3rd shot, I usually stop after 2 , but at least 3 times I used 3 shots (got 2 of those) and once a 4th and got that one. If they start much more than 30 yards to start, I will usually wait for an easier (closer) one.
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westksbowhunter
Well-known member
A Briley Light Mod is hard to beat on pheasants. It stays in my gun all season.
Goosemaster
Well-known member
You are a prodigy
BrownDogsCan2
Well-known member
Late summer you’ll catch me driving down the road finger shooting doves.
walk213
Active member
I get it. I do try to move forward after a miss. That said, it was so bad this season that I never attempted a challenging shot. My confidence was low, so I was always hoping that a rooster would be close and late to pop up. I will look up that book. Thank you.