Ready or not....here the questions come!!!

[keepinthetradition]

Hello all,

This is the post that I throw up all over you all. I hope the server has enough space!

Long, story long...we adopted an English Setter puppy that was dumped in Santa Fe on I25 back in February of 2007. Skinny, flea and tick infested, but full of feistiness and attached to me like velcro from hour one! I won't go any farther here because it still makes my blood pressure spike everytime I think about it!

We knew we wanted to adopt and based on the personalities and characteristics of our first two dogs (Dalmatian (very atypical in his personality, more like a hound, who loved to retrieve, swim and not at all aggressive and Golden Retriever, I think we all know what he was like). After some research, it looked like an English Setter would be a good blend and mix for our family.

Well, it worked, but I trained him from an obedience standpoint (I showed my Dalmatian in obedience), not as a hunting dog, and I wasn't as active with the training as I had previously been with the Dal.

Now we come to the hunting part. Realized that I wanted our family to "keep the tradition" that my husband's family had established way back when, and I wanted my children to learn to respect and hopefully carry on as well.

So, now I have a hunting dog without any hunting training, and I'm afraid I've totally screwed the pooch and ourselves. Started asking questions, did some research on training, got some DVD's, and was totally intimidated and overwhelmed. Found out that there are some trainers and training methods that I don't want to ever expose my dog or myself to. Just my two cents, but I don't consider my dogs to be machines, yes, he's a dog, and yes, he is a tool to help us two legged creatures be successful in this sport, but lord have mercy, they are not inanimate, unfeeling, robots! Finally went to the Sportsmen's Expo and thank God, I think I may have found where Griff and I need to be, based on our personalites and what I think Grif needs. How 'bout that CJ Kausel? I watched him with his dog Shawnee and I bought one of his videos, I'm impressed.

Now questions:

1) It seems that there is some kind of evaluation that trainers put the dog through to see if the dog is going to hunt or not. Does anyone know what that is, and if so, how or what do I do to see if he will do the job?

2) Should I treat Griffin as if he is a puppy in regards to birds? Wing/rod exposure? Now my husband and I have been, shall we saaaayyy, not so successful this year, so where would I get wings to start?

3) I messed up in his training and taught him to sit when we heel and stop. Working on fixing that with a step forward to get his butt off the ground, and then using Whoa. So far he actually seems relieved that he doesn't have to sit all of the time (probably thought that the whole sitting thing was a pain in the arse, stupid idea mom).

4) To whistle, or not to whistle? I'm totally confused on this one. I've almost always used come and a corresponding whistle (mouth). After reading A LOT on this forum, some of you whistle, some of you don't, some of you use different variations for different commands. , help! I've only used a whistle for one command and that is come. Right now it is one long blast (that's about all I'm capable of, I'm no pro whistler and I only use the training whistle when we are in a dog park and he's way out there), but I'm thinking that because I've not used whistling for anything else that I can modify that to a few quick blasts for come. Am I on the right track? If you are whistler's could you give me a quick synopsis on whistle and corresponding command. If you are not, or use whistling/no whistling under different situations, could you give me your insight? I'm of the opinion that when I'm out there hunting I want to be as quiet as possible, but how do you all get your dogs to "keep in touch" so to speak?

5) To flush or not to flush?? Obviously, Griffin is a pointing dog. How and what do I do to make sure that I don't inadvertently make him a flusher? This may sound stupid, but I might as well get used to it...he chases squirrels in our backyard...first there's the point, which he will hold until he's shaking head to toe (I have not interacted in these little encounters because I didn't want to screw anything up), if the squirrel freezes he holds, if the squirrel busts a move, sometimes he just stays there and watches it roll, sometimes he beats feet and chases the heck out of it. This doesn't make him a flusher, does it?

6) WHOA? I've seen quite a few trainers using barrels and boards to train this command. At the Sports Expo, CJ gave a quick and dirty summary where it appears that you can train this almost like you train stay in obedience. Start close, use the command, work your way out until the dog's got it. For those of you who use the boards and barrels, what are the advantages, and the why's. Yes, I can pick up my 64lb. boy, but my butt's going to be whooped if I have to do it numerous times in a session! For those of you who don't use the board/barrel, do you think that this is just as successful or are there specific reasons why you chose this way?

7) How far? How far do you let your dogs go out to work? I'm thinking that it is pretty obvious that you keep them within your shooting range, but if your dog is 20 yards out 1) how do you get him to look at you if you are changing direction, and be quiet at the same time? 2) Are there times that you keep them closer, and how do you maintain that?

8) Do you ever let your dog go behind you to circle around?

9) If you are in a switchgrass field (I've been in a couple that have been chest high) and your dog is hunting out 10 to 15 yards out, I'm thinkin' that you don't really have a very good view of what's going on? How the heck do you know if your dog is still hunting, or if he/she is out there on point? The last thing I want to do is call the dog, no response, give a little stimulation with the collar, and ruin what may be a very good thing!

10) How do you make sure that the dog works in a left, right fashion, rather than heading straight out? And, I know my guy when he gets out of the truck after 3 hours(which he hates by the way), he wants to be crazy man for awhile, before he gets his sniffer goin', how do you manage that?

I'm going to leave it at that for right now, my brain hurts, and I apologize for the length of this post. It takes a whole lot to intimidate me, but you all are so far beyond me in all of this that sometimes it's hard to just put yourself out there, good, bad or otherwise, and start pickin' your brains without looking too stupid.

One last thing, Griffin, my daughter (I've told her that if she wants a pup then she needs to watch Grif and I learn, and she will be responsbile for training her pup....pretty good way to get her out there and participate, huh?), and myself are going to head out to the Colorado Gun Dog Club this Saturday and check it out (Have to be home for that Ravens/Steelers game though, not often that the ol' man(Pitt) and I (Ravens) get to see our teams beat the crap out of each other anymore). Hopefully, I won't get all intimidated and get some advice from those guys as well.

Thanks for your patience guys, and have a great week!

p.s. Yeah, I just can't shut up can I (my husband says the same thing sometimes)? I'm going to try to attach a picture of Grif. This should be interesting.

 

[winchester21]

Has the dog seen/smelt a pheasant? That would be the first evaluation that would show you whether or not the dog hunts or like birds. I would suggest taking the dog to a place where you can put him on some pen raised birds and see if he'll sniff them out or even get birdy. It sounds like you've hunted him this season which is really the best thing to do, in my opinion. I wouldn't worry too much about all the little details like whether or not he sits when you have him come and heel. Just hunt him. You'll know whether he works or not, it's instincual. I've got wings and plenty of carcasses if you would like some. No dog is going to be perfect right off the bat. It takes lots of time and patience and love.

 

[dead pheasants forever]

Looks like you have an interesting project on your hands.

1) If you really want to know whether your dog is worth the time and money (yes, even training a dog on your own somehow always gets expensive), you should have an experienced trainer evaluate him. I PM'd you with the name of a guy who is the best I've seen in CO for pointing breeds. It'll cost you ~$50 for an hour, your dog will get to chase some birds around, and you'll go home with some things to work on. An amateur trainer who doesn't work with dogs every day (a) probably won't know what to look for and (b) might not have the heart to be honest with you about your dog's potential.

2) I don't think the wing on a string serves any training purpose. A dog needs birds to become a bird dog. Most people who live in cities with no easy access to wild birds use pigeons because they are cheap and readily available.

3) Don't teach sit yet.

4) I train whistle commands. One blast means sit and look at me. Repeated blasts mean come. However, you should rarely use the whistle in the field. I only use mine for near emergencies, such as lost dog, approaching a busy road, or sending on a retrieve. Though not used often, the whistle is invaluable when needed. Your dog should check in every so often while hunting without a whistle, keeping 90% of his attention on finding birds and 10% of his attention on not getting separated from you.

5) That's what he's supposed to do. Pointing dogs are supposed to pin birds down, not just go on point every time they smell or see a bird. If the bird moves, he's supposed to break point and reestablish when the bird stops. Otherwise, he'd make lots of unproductive points on wild birds, particularly pheasants. The only ways to mess up a natural point are to shoot birds when he flushes them and to overly interfere with him while he's pointing.

6) Depends on the dog. I whoa trained my dog without barrels, boards, or suitcases, but she has a high desire to please and therefore doesn't require as many tricks.

7) Most English Setters naturally run big. They are bred to cover a lot of ground and then pin birds down until you can catch up with them, though some are bred to work a bit closer. Most English Setter owners would be displeased if their dogs did not work at least 50-75 yds out, possibly 150-200 yds. There are advantages and disadvantages to running big. Advantage: will find more birds. Disadvantage: will accidentally flush (bump) more birds out of range. Most pheasant hunters like their dogs to work in flushing range, but many are very successful with dogs that work like field trial dogs. I would not try to force a big running dog to work in flushing range, especially at first. First, it goes against his nature and would probably require frequent e-collar stimulation. Second, he needs to learn to find birds without your constant interference.

8) No. Putting birds up behind the shooters does no good. If he tries to circle behind you, cut him off by walking into him and force him to turn around.

9) If you don't hear your dog busting through the heavy cover, that's probably a good sign that your dog's on point. My dog's e-collar has a beeping function that allows me to locate her if I can't find her. Even most big running dogs will work closer in heavy cover.

10) You can't really train a pointer how to work cover, though some will train a flushing dog to quarter. The best thing you can do is expose your dogs to birds. He'll learn what cover holds more birds and work that cover more thoroughly. He'll start skipping over the unproductive stuff.

If you haven't already, I would immediately start taking your dog on off leash walks in natural cover, with wild birds if possible. Try not to talk to him or interfere with him. This will teach him how to use his nose in different wind conditions and how to keep in contact with you. When he's not paying attention, hide behind a tree. Hopefully, he'll get concerned that he's lost the pack and will backtrack and try to find you. This will get him in the habit of checking in without a whistle. These types of learned skills are far more vital than a bunch of backyard commands. This will also give you a better idea of his natural range.

 

[Scoelki]

Looks like you have an interesting project on your hands.

1) If you really want to know whether your dog is worth the time and money (yes, even training a dog on your own somehow always gets expensive), you should have an experienced trainer evaluate him. I PM'd you with the name of a guy who is the best I've seen in CO for pointing breeds. It'll cost you ~$50 for an hour, your dog will get to chase some birds around, and you'll go home with some things to work on. An amateur trainer who doesn't work with dogs every day (a) probably won't know what to look for and (b) might not have the heart to be honest with you about your dog's potential.



Good point! My pointing Lab has only had a few sessions with the breeder and he is turning out Awesome!!! He gets better every year and this is only his second season. I agree that the more you hunt him the better off he will be in the long run. We are getting more birds this year than last year. I took my PL(pointing Lab)and my 4 mo old GSP out last Friday and I was worried he would be gun shy, my PL went on a hard point and we shot 3 birds in a matter of 6 seconds. He did not even blink. He seen the birds fall and well........lets put it this way all three of our dogs had a bird to retrieve. Including my new pup . If it is in his blood they will start to figure it out. Just put them on alot of birds. Bird farms/preserves work good for that matter as well with a nice check cord . Just tell them that you are working on a new dog and they can help you out( letting you plant the birds).

I also would like the number to the trainer that does pointing breeds. Dead Pheasants can you send me a PM with his number. I would like to get an evaluation and some training with my GSP pup.

 

[fast900t]

I'm pretty new at all this, but I may be able to offer a couple suggestions.
Canned hunts, might be useful to get a dog into live birds - places like Strasburg game birds offered to let our novice dog work with their experienced dogs - guaranteed birds, and experienced examples. I plan on trying this tactic after season end this year.

#10 - I let our dog out shortly after we get off the main highway - find a vacant field, park, parking lot behind McD's in Brush, something - and let him be a spaas, take care of business and get it out of his system - that way when we pull up to the WIA field 10 minutes later he's ready to work. Takes some forethought and an extra 15-minutes int he morning, but it seems to work.

Nice pup BTW.

 

[pheasantaddict]

Take the parts of the training from books and videos you like and apply them. I agree that your dog is not a machine. Build your bond with the dog at home and field and you should be able to train him yourself.

 

[rwalker]

tips

WOW!!!!!! That was a lot to address, here's my take for what its worth, and trust me I am no expert but this is how I go about it:

1) Responsiveness
2) Birds
3) Focus
4) Control

DON'T over control the dog!!!! Control is last, put the dog in the field daily if possible. This doesn't mean Yuma or Holyoke. Find similar type cover to walk in and don't go to the same place everytime, don't talk or command just move thru the field. Greenbelts, Vacant Lot, Golf Courses(don't get hit), etc. Then every chance you can get him on birds (Use pigeons close to home) Oh by the way sportsman's warehouse has prepacked wings and tails of pheasants and other species but these don't provide the same effect as REAL BIRDS. There's so much more but that should help.

 

[Scooter]

Looks like you have an interesting project on your hands.

I also would like the number to the trainer that does pointing breeds. Dead Pheasants can you send me a PM with his number. I would like to get an evaluation and some training with my GSP pup.

I'd be interested in that number also! I have a one year old that I want to get out with. Unfortunately she only got one training session very young and then broke a foot, I got seriously ill, and a year has gone by...but I know she will hunt!

 

[rattman]

Call Gary Ruppel (303-725-1772). He's an excellent trainer out near Kiowa. He has the grounds and birds to check your pup's aptitude. An exceptionally nice guy who uses influence handling as opposed to heavy pressure. Gary breeds fine labs and english pointers and is equally adept at training pointers or flushers. Got his start with setters in Michigan years ago.

ratt

 

[engpointerman]

There will always be many ideas of what a good hunting dog is. Some people want their dog to do everything they are supposed to do according to what a book says or people say. Here is my two cents. My dogs have no formal training. They know their names. They were bred to point. I think the two most important things for hunting pheasants. Is holding point when they find a bird. Pointing dogs typically run at a bigger range. So therefore u need time to get to the dog and bird before it flushes. The next thing is being able to mark and find the bird once it is shot. Retrieving is important also but pointing breeds I have noticed some are strong with it and some need force broke. Me personally as a field hunter its more important to get the down bird. If he retrieves to hand great. IF they only get it part way back thats fine. Its all up to each individual how they want their dogs to work. I am fine with how my dogs work in the field they get me into birds. We dont hardly ever lose birds. Not much more for me to ask for from them. One last thing to point out I have had one dog that went to a trainer. He does not hunt wild birds as well as the dogs that have never seen a pen bird. Maybe an individual case. But I have seen many dogs that have seen alot of pen birds. Especially pointing breeds that dont know how to work the trail of a running rooster because most pen birds sit fairly tight or move a little. Wild roosters we all know can run a dog to death. So in my opinion you do what u think is best for u.

 

[keepinthetradition]

Bumpin' this up to say thank you.

Thanks for all of the info guys, I really appreciate it. Ended up attending an open house for one of the gun dog associations a couple of weeks ago, and I do believe I've got a bird dog. They had a trainer there out of the Springs (don't know how much info I can give there), but he was awesome. So we got Griffin on some birds and HOLY CR**P, what a different dog, thought I would have to see if he'd be interested and he was ready to kill those birds! Trainer told me that first priority is to teach him to WHOA. Now everytime I take him out he knows he has a purpose and I've created monster! Needless to say I'm thrilled!

@win21: I had him out once this year and he got onto a couple of piles, but my husband and I pretty much suck at this pheasant hunting thing, so we probably put him in the only fields that didn't have any pheasants! Poor dog!

On that note, I would like to take you up on your offer if you have extra wings/carcasses just to get his nose on them.

@dpf: Was lucky enough to get an evaluation without paying a dime. Always a bonus in my book. Thanks for the PM. Taking the sit command totally out of the picture. I messed up on that one, now I'm going back and using WHOA, and keeping him standing (total ignorance on my part).
Have been using the whistle, only using quick blasts with the here command, not going to even try anything else yet. Thanks for that one.
As for WHOA training, shall we say it's been interesting, he believes that if I go he should go, so we are starting small and it will take some time for me to get more remote.

@Scoelki: You mentioned using the trainer, and I lucked into one at the Gun Dog Association that I'm going to join, and he provides training days once a month for $40/month. I plan on taking full advantage of that!

@fastfoot: Due to my lack of luck and experience in this pheasant hunting stuff, I'm pretty sure that I will probably take advantage of a canned hunt (even though I feel like I'm cheating) just to give the poor dog a chance to do his thing. Thanks.

@rwalker: Yes, I agree over control can ruin it for the dog in a heartbeat. I have to say that my biggest fear is that he's not going to come back, but I'll bite my tongue, and I've tested him by walking away when he's not paying attention and he always comes back. I guess this is when my sappy mom genes come into play!

@rattman: Thanks for the reference! Found a trainer who trained English Setters for about 15-20 years and I'm hooked.

@engpointer: I agree, my plans for this guy, is to get him out there doing what he's bred to do (and help our sorry asses get some birds), but I'd like him to point and not flush. I'm also thinkin' of doing some trials for FUN. I don't care if he's a champ, but I have so much fun watching him do his thing that it would be nice to kind of make it a year around thing. It also drives me to get of my bum and get moving!

Thanks again guys. Love this forum!

 

[KsHusker]

Well you said your dog seems to be bird crazy.

First question Id have is what type of personality does your dog have.

Is he soft? Is he bull headed? Can he take pressure and correction? What kind of trainer are you, are you consistent? Can you read the dog? Do you use an E-Collar? Do you know when the proper time to use an E-Collar is?

Do you have close access to areas where you can let the dog run and get into wild birds?

Do you have access to pen raised birds?


If you're dog is busting birds, keep him off of pen raised birds unless you can control him. Gotta develop the prey drive first then you can discipline and work on form. My philosophy since I cant stand bullheaded dogs and will normally take a more biddable one is build them up, then if needed you can knock em back, if that makes sense.



I think those are some questions you'd have to answer before you attempted training the dog yourself. If you cant answer those questions, nor make the commitment, Id take him to a trainer. If you cant keep the dog in birds on a consistent basis during the year and hunt him during season I wouldnt waste my money on a trainer as the dog will most likely forget everything if its not reinforced.

Setters love to please, thats one of the things I like about the breed and my 2 females.

Good Luck.

 

[Wildflush]

I’m surprised I haven’t heard any one mention this guy yet.
As far as pointing dog concern, I believe Steve Chang is among the best, if not the best in Colorado. I think you guys will really like his style of teaching, it is calm yet the dogs learned very quickly. I know he still teach classes every Saturday but I have not been to his new facility and I heard the new place is first rate. Back when I was taking the class for $45 we get a breakfast, he usually starts the day with a short lecture and Q/A sessions follow by a workshop where each dog get to work on 4~5 live birds in the field then he send us home with home work. The atmosphere was relaxed yet the course is well organized, I also met a bunch dog owners like myself, a few of us end up going hunting together. He is only 30 min from Denver,
here is his website www.godfathergundogs.com hope that helps.