quail versus turkey

T

thurrealty

New member
Merry Christmas everyone...I wanted to throw something out and see if other guys have noticed or agree on what I have seen or might believe. I have a strong belief that areas that have a lot of turkeys dont have many quail. I have hunted in several states especially Kansas and also Kentucky where I live and have seen turkeys populate dramatically and quail go down hill quick. Is this a coincidence? I dont think so. But I am not a biologist . I know what any Fish and Wildlife biologist would say...but I know who writes their checks. I have a belief that turkeys carry viruses that hurt the quail populations. I have heard the stories that turkeys eat the quail eggs...and that might be true...but I firmly believe there is more to it. I am spelling it wrong...I know...but (coccidiosess..sp? ) may be the key. I saw it one time on pen raised birds. I know turkeys carry this....and wondered if anyone agreed or had an opinion???????? Asking this question might show I have too much time on my hands...he he. I would appreciate if anyone else has noticed the same thing??? Thanks..Doug:confused:
 
Check out KDWP's website. They have a section that addresses common myths related to upland birds and it speaks to exactly what you're asking about. If you Google something like "Turkeys eat quail Kansas" a link to the section should be on the first page or 2. You'll find that the biologists are suggesting the changes in habitat are contributing to the increase in turkey populations and decrease in quail populations. What good for the the turkeys isn't necessarily good for the quail.

Hope this helps! Let me know what you think about it after you read it.
 
kansasbrittany said:
Check out KDWP's website. They have a section that addresses common myths related to upland birds and it speaks to exactly what you're asking about. If you Google something like "Turkeys eat quail Kansas" a link to the section should be on the first page or 2. You'll find that the biologists are suggesting the changes in habitat are contributing to the increase in turkey populations and decrease in quail populations. What good for the the turkeys isn't necessarily good for the quail.

Hope this helps! Let me know what you think about it after you read it.
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Thanks Chad...usually the biologists stand behind the habitat issue..it is an easy way out...I think. The areas I hunted for 20 years didnt change..no habitat change at all. Beans , corn, fencerows, same little drain areas and also same tree lines. I could take a picture of the farms I have hunted 20 years ago and then today and no change of habitat. Me thinks there might be more to it. I am not saying the turkeys dont mess up the nests and eat the eggs. But I think that is not all there is to the story. I sent those pics to your other email address by the way...did they make it? Thanks..Doug:cheers:
 
Population changes are more evident to hunters than habitat changes. If you study both species, you'll find that turkey have a wider ecological adaptation than do quail. Therefore, as habitat matures and becomes dominated by more high successional plant species, it becomes less favorable to quail and turkey find it more attractive. So, yes, it is a coincidence, not cause and effect. If the trend continues where the country is owned/controlled by fewer and fewer managers, you can expect the management to further decline and quail habitat to become more and more scarce. The old days where families lived on ever quarter section and everyone burned wood kept succession in check. Now that isn't happening and fields are becoming larger and larger, fewer crop types are being planted and diversity that quail thrive on is becoming limited. Unfortunately, the good ole days are gone and it'll take some kind of economic or cultural change to reverse the trend markedly.
 
Doug, I invite you to follow through on comparing pictures of your area over time. You'll find that you're not seeing the changes, but they are happening. I have aerial photos of my headquarters from 1936 and today. In 1936 there were 2 mature trees in the picture and the only other trees were trees planted in rows along the drive and fence that were 2 feet tall. Now there are thousands of trees in the same picture. Everything has changed. You'll find the same thing if you look. You'll find brome where native used to be, trees where brush had dominated, row crops where patchwork fields of a number of crops used to be planted. It'd be worth your time to see what has gone on, might be a map to how to return to the past bird populations!
 
Doug,

I did get the pictures and they're great. I knew PD would straighten us out on this issue.

Thanks and Merry Christmas to all!!
 
kansasbrittany said:
Doug,

I did get the pictures and they're great. I knew PD would straighten us out on this issue.

Thanks and Merry Christmas to all!!
Click to expand...

Some of the habitat concerns he mentioned is right...regarding the farms and how they used to be smaller and had a lot more areas that are good for birds rather than the bigger areas we are used to now. I dont disagree...the puzzling thing still how some areas have the same now as then...and no birds..but plenty of turkey. The areas I mentioned have the same habitat...believe me..nothing changes...same gates...same grown up areas...same fields with corn or beans...same everything. Full of quail in the 80's no turkey...full of turkey now...no quail. The same family has owned it forever...saw more quail in the 80's than ever before...no quail to speak of now. Plenty of turkeys. Got to be something going on.:cheers:
 
Interesting discussion

A couple of years ago I hunted turkey's outside of Pretty Prairie, Kansas. We were talking to an old old (did I say old) retired dentist. He was remarking that 50 years earlier you could have counted on one hand the number of large tree's in the area and there were zero turkey's. They (large tree's) just didn't exist. Now, that same area has groves and groves of tree's and there are turkey's everywhere. What turkey's have now that they didn't have long ago was roosting areas, coupled with food etc. The expansion of turkey's followed the expansion of roosting areas. Now in many parts of Kansas, there are turkey's everywhere and winter flocks (I've heard) can number in the 100's. I for one who loves to turkey hunt relish the idea of more birds. However, more tree's and large tree's seems to have severely impacted the Quail population. Quail just don't need tree's it appears and more tree's is a habitat change for sure. So in short, different habitat needs caused one population (turkeys) to expand to unseen levels, while the other species (quail) were negatively impacted by the habitat change.

All the above said, if anyone has an overabundance of those pesky turkeys and wants them thinned out. Please send me a PM. I'm about to retire and I'd love nothing more then to help you native Kansas folks out with what is obviously a severe turkey overabundance problem. :)

PS. This same discussion is also happening in Maine these days. There are many who believe the increased turkey populations in Maine have impacted the grouse population as well. They believe Turkey's eat young grouse poults.
 
Quail and Turkey Where I Hunt

thurrealty said:
Merry Christmas everyone...I wanted to throw something out and see if other guys have noticed or agree on what I have seen or might believe. I have a strong belief that areas that have a lot of turkeys dont have many quail. I have hunted in several states especially Kansas and also Kentucky where I live and have seen turkeys populate dramatically and quail go down hill quick. Is this a coincidence? I dont think so. But I am not a biologist . I know what any Fish and Wildlife biologist would say...but I know who writes their checks. I have a belief that turkeys carry viruses that hurt the quail populations. I have heard the stories that turkeys eat the quail eggs...and that might be true...but I firmly believe there is more to it. I am spelling it wrong...I know...but (coccidiosess..sp? ) may be the key. I saw it one time on pen raised birds. I know turkeys carry this....and wondered if anyone agreed or had an opinion???????? Asking this question might show I have too much time on my hands...he he. I would appreciate if anyone else has noticed the same thing??? Thanks..Doug:confused:
Click to expand...

Where I hunt in NW there is abundant turkey and quail in the same areas.
 
Doug, it's human nature to need a villan to blame negatives on. The villan in this instance is wearing boots. The problems are man made. Although you want to insist that nothing has changed in your area in 30 years, nothing in nature stays the same. Everything changes/evolves with time. That is the nature of habitat. One study in eastern Kansas documents that there has been a 28% increase in woodlands in eastern Kansas since the '80s. Your area gets more rain than we do here, therefore it can be expected that succession is that much faster there. That is why managers in Florida with the same soil types that I have here burn annually where we burn in a 3-5 year roatation. The difference in their 90 inch rainfall and our 26 is that great. Please take the time to get aerial photos of your area in ten year increments for the past 40 years and compare. Your eyes will not record those changes without the stills. That's just human nature. It's like watching grass grow. You don't see it happening, but it still needs mowed every week or two.
 
We are .experiencing the same changes in MO where the turkeys & deer outnumber the quail. Farming practices such as no till farming, increased use of chemicals etc. all contribute in negative ways also. Quail need buffer area with some trees or other cover close to their food source in order to survive. A good area I had hunted for years had quail going up in the trees after being flushed in the late 90s, in 2 years it went from 6 coveys to just a few birds. Very complex problem.
Merry Xmas to all,
 
Prairie Drifter said:
Doug, it's human nature to need a villan to blame negatives on. The villan in this instance is wearing boots. The problems are man made. Although you want to insist that nothing has changed in your area in 30 years, nothing in nature stays the same. Everything changes/evolves with time. That is the nature of habitat. One study in eastern Kansas documents that there has been a 28% increase in woodlands in eastern Kansas since the '80s. Your area gets more rain than we do here, therefore it can be expected that succession is that much faster there. That is why managers in Florida with the same soil types that I have here burn annually where we burn in a 3-5 year roatation. The difference in their 90 inch rainfall and our 26 is that great. Please take the time to get aerial photos of your area in ten year increments for the past 40 years and compare. Your eyes will not record those changes without the stills. That's just human nature. It's like watching grass grow. You don't see it happening, but it still needs mowed every week or two.
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Hey guys...thanks for everyone's opinion/s would love to hear more...one thing we might all have forgotten is cycles...and also Mother Nature...if anyone of us would have the complete answer we would be very wealthy. I did come home tonight and had a message from Al Gore..he read the question I asked on this site and he said Global Warming burned up the quail nests...so with that being said...Merry Christmas...film at 11..Doug:rolleyes:
 
Hinge-Cutting

Everything I have read states that timber-feathering or hinge-cutting can have an incredibly positive impact on quail populations in specific areas. If everyone that owned ground made a commitment to hinge-cut trashed trees in their fence lines and draws and waterways I think there would be alot more quail around.

Unfortunately here in Iowa when we cut the trash trees out of a ditch or draw or waterway we cut everything else along with it and the whole area is farmed forever more.

I think the objective is to cut them in the spring after the new leaves have started to develop in order to provide a more protective canopy once these trees have been dropped. If you want to see more quail it is the first thing I would do because all it takes is gas, manpower, and a decent saw.
 
Tpharkman, it will only work if that type of cover is the limiting factor. Normally that is not the case. In situations where woody succession is the problem, it is generally a lack of nesting or brood-rearing cover that is missing. The only way to improve quail numbers is to address the limiting factor and to do so on a broad scale. In quail management it is often discussed on a "landscape" scale. If you make improvements to 15 acres, you may only make room for 1 additional covey. If you provide the same improvements directed at the limiting factor over say 2000 acres, you may have made room for an additional 100 coveys. Further, to say habitat hasn't change is to say trees haven't grown or the farm equipment hasn't moved soil. Everyone ought to take my challenge and acquire aerial photos of your favorite spot that has seen a decline in bird numbers, photos from 2009, 2000, 1990, 1980 etc and compare. It's amazing how things change and we don't register those changes in our heads. Do that, then do a walk over with quail habitat in mind and the picture becomes more clear as to what is missing and what is abundant. No one practice is going to improve quail everywhere.
 
It's a bit frustrating to me when I hear the old turkey vs. quail argument. I think PD is correct when he says that we, as humans, need to find a villain. The cause and effect of an event normally gives us the answer to a problem....but not always. Here's a little example of what I mean.

In New York City, in July, ice cream sales increase dramatically. The murder rate also jumps at nearly the same rate. The conclusion? Eating ice cream increases the murder rate.

Obviously, this example is foolish. However it does illustrate that what appears to be the cause of something may not be.

We also tend to blame the weather. While the weather has an effect on our bird numbers, the weather only exposes those areas with the worst habitat. Since that habitat in so many areas is poor, anything less than a perfect breeding cycle means very few birds. Having a year go by with no (or few) major weather events in an area is not likely to happen in KS. This year is an execption. My belief is that I wil likely never see a quail year like this in KS again in my lifetime.

With regard to turkey v. quail, I wish the answer were that simple. Unfortunately the answer is much tougher. Imagine trying to get an entire region of farmers to give up a portion of their land (and therefore income) to try and go back to less efficient farming practices.

Merry Christmas all.

Point!
 
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