Patterning and adjusting fire!

O

Obi_Wan

Active member
Well, I went out and patterned some guns today. Not going to post photos yet or talk numbers just overall results because I have to make some adjustments to even be useful. All patterns were shot at 40 yards. Freehand and with a rest to see if there was a difference. There wasn’t enough to care one way or the other.

Browning A5 16ga. IM and M Briley chokes. #5 Fiocchi Golden Pheasant and #6 Browning Pheasant loads. I shot two shots with each and had my brother in law shoot one to see if the issue was me. It wasn’t. He got the exact same results. All patterns were high and left. And when I say high and left, I mean significantly high and significantly left. Using two circles 20 and 30:”, the lower right quad of my 30 inch circle would be in the single digits of hits. Lower right of 20” would be less than 20 hits. With 35-40 hits in the upper left. Could see the bulk of the pattern on the upper left corner of the paper.

Benelli Legacy 20 ga. M Carlson’s choke. #6 Kent Fast Lead. Low and left. The upper right quad had less than 10 hits. I made a change to the shims before I shot that I may need to change back.

Neither of these guns would be acceptable (for me) to hunt with as is. I have the Benelli legacy’s stock washer set for cast off. I can change the drop up and down. I have the shim in the Browning for cast off. I can go back to neutral or leave as is and go up or down with the drop. Question is, what insight can I get from you guys?

Now the positive. Franchi 48 AL 28 gauge with Trulock IM and M chokes. B&P 15/16 oz Heavy Dove 2 3/4” load. The M choke was about a 60/40 pattern very evenly spaced. It was a great pattern at 40 yards and would be killer at that distance with that load. Very impressed. It had 20 pellets less in the 30” circle than the 1/18 oz 16 ga loads and only like 35 less than the 1 1/4 12 ga loads. The IM choke was not a good one. Definitely no advantage of going up in choke. Had my BIL shoot the M choke and his results were the same. We shot his SBE 12 ga with factory M choke with Kent fast Lead 1 1/4 oz #5 and Fed. Prairie Storm 1 1/4 oz #5. Patterns were high right. Probably close to 80/20 or 90/10.
 
westksbowhunter said:
Sounds like shimming is in order. How does the LOP fit you for each gun? I would recommend shooting just one gun at a time and making adjustments then moving on to the next gun.
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LOP is good for each gun. I kind of did what you mentioned. I shot the 16 ga until I had shot it all I was going to for data. Then the 20 the same way. then the 28. My intent now is to make changes to the 16 and see if I can get it to shoot for me. If not, I’ll have to figure out what is next. Whether its a trip back to browning or to a stock fitter or it finds its way down the road. Then I’ll do the same for the 20. Although I’ve already been considering selling the 20 since I have more.
 
Very important data! I have one gun that shoots a bit left of center…not bad up or down, but about 8” left of center….had shot lots of birds with that gun before patterning…I shoot clays with it a few times each august to confirm that I break clays reasonably well….but I wish it wasn’t shooting left! I’ve patterned about 8 other guns, all doubles, no issues…never patterned my auto’s, they’re pretty darned deadly…but I’m gonna do it now…
 
My Browning 625 spreads just right at 60/40.
benelli-banger said:
Very important data! I have one gun that shoots a bit left of center…not bad up or down, but about 8” left of center….had shot lots of birds with that gun before patterning…I shoot clays with it a few times each august to confirm that I break clays reasonably well….but I wish it wasn’t shooting left! I’ve patterned about 8 other guns, all doubles, no issues…never patterned my auto’s, they’re pretty darned deadly…but I’m gonna do it now…
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wouldn't that likely be a choke problem from being poorly machined so not to point straight?
 
You should first fired the gun off a bench or other steady rest to confirm that the gun's point of impact matches the point of aim. Fire 2-3 shots at the same target, say 16 yards.

If a gun doesn't shoot to point of aim, the issues can be non-concentric choke or barrel harmonics. I have also restored the concentricity of a damaged barrel by pounding a tapered socket into the muzzle.

I have corrected the point of impact of several guns by replacing damaged choke tubes or grinding the interior of a fixed choke.

After checking for or correcting for those issues, you can adjust the point of impact to yourself via gun fitting.
 
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John Singer said:
You should first fired the gun off a bench or other steady rest to confirm that the gun's point of impact matches the point of aim. Fire 2-3 shots at the same target, say 16 yards.

If a gun doesn't shoot to point of aim, the issues can be non-concentric choke or barrel harmonics. I have also restored the concentricity of a damaged barrel by pounding a tapered socket into the muzzle.

I have corrected the point of impact of several guns by replacing damaged choke tubes or grinding the interior of a fixed choke.

After checking for or correcting for those issues, you can adjust the point of impact to yourself via gun fitting.
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I think I mentioned above we fired it off a rest and got the same results as freehand. I did fail to mention that we did some single shots and some doubles to make sure it wasn’t a one off deal. All results the same.

I do agree that some of those things have to be considered but I think changing the shims to try to make corrections are the first course of action. For one, that’s what they are for. We did discuss the idea that it could be a barrel or choke issue. The one thing that leads me to believe its not the chokes for the A5 is that I used two different chokes. Now, both brand new from Briley but the chances of both being that off would be low. I guess I’m in the I hope its just the shims right now and don’t want it to be the barrel, but I know it could be. (Sometimes we don’t get what we want though)

Unfortunately, I’m not trained or versed in fixing the concentricity of the barrell, so if that’s it, it’s got to go somewhere to have it fixed.

When I get a chance to go back out, I’ll be shooting all off a rest at first. If I get better results, I’ll shoot some freehand to see if that makes any changes.

I think I’m frustrated because I’ve never thought to pattern a gun before. This A5 is the second shotgun I’ve ever owned that didn’t just work for me right out of the box. First one was a Ruger Red Label. I had been shooting a Franchi 48 AL for skeet and wanted to go with an O/U. Just bought one off the rack. My average was 22-23 per round at the time and it was like 12 with the Red Label. This was back before i knew anything about fit. Someone finally pointed out that it had a fairly significant cast on stock. i borrowed a friend’s red label with a cast off stock and shot it just fine. Rather than change the stock, I just sold the Red Label and got a 20 ga O/U.

I do appreciate all the ideas.
 
This is an important thread…one of the most important I’ve observed here…most hunters I know don’t pattern their guns/loads. I haven’t with my 2 autos, they’re my “meat guns”, and always have been…all my doubles I’ve patterned…have about 10 of them…
 
Have patterned most of my guns and never ran into what is described here. It has always been to verify what chokes and loads produce the desired pattern. One thing I did learn when I was patterning new Rizzini 16 gauge a couple of years ago was the extended chokes I bought from Europe were entire junk. Had ordered 5 or 6 in different constrictions. When I started to pattern them found they were all way more open then what was marked on them and had I not checked pretty certain there would have been a lot of wounded birds that year.
 
A buddy of mine had a Mossberg 500 that he couldn't hit anything with. He bought it mainly for a squirrel gun. We set up a beer can at 25 yards and neither one of us could put more than 3 or 4 shot in it. It had the full choke tube in it. Patterned it on paper and it was way off. We took the full out and installed the mod and it shot fine. I've seen a place advertise that they can adjust patterns by installing chokes crooked in the barrels to adjust impact points. I don't remember who. Before I did that though they would be moving down the road. I always shoot the sheet with new bird guns. I only paper pattern them if I think there's a problem. I always paper pattern turkey guns. As I've said before, my luck with barrel regulation on the CZ's has not been good. The cheapest way to make sure it's not you or stock fit problems is to have a center bead installed. If you line, the beads up and it still sucks. Move it. You'll never use it. You'll always reach for a gun you have faith in.
 
I have four Citori's (2-12, 16, 20) that are supposed to have field grade 50/50 patterns. The 725 12 ga shoots a very flat 50/50 pattern, but the other three all shoot a bit high (maybe 60/40) on the pattern board. However, whether skeet/clays/hunting, I don't notice any difference in any of them regarding how they hit the birds. I have heard of some guns shooting very high or low, and/or left to right enough to miss or cripple birds.
 
CRP said:
I have four Citori's (2-12, 16, 20) that are supposed to have field grade 50/50 patterns. The 725 12 ga shoots a very flat 50/50 pattern, but the other three all shoot a bit high (maybe 60/40) on the pattern board. However, whether skeet/clays/hunting, I don't notice any difference in any of them regarding how they hit the birds. I have heard of some guns shooting very high or low, and/or left to right enough to miss or cripple birds.
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Shooting a bit high is good, most targets are rising, so the experts say….makes sense
 
For sure, shooting low would be more of a problem. I'd rather float the bird over the bead than have to cover it up. The only problem with higher patterns would be on long dropping clays targets, but that's only on a clays course.
 
CRP said:
I have four Citori's (2-12, 16, 20) that are supposed to have field grade 50/50 patterns. The 725 12 ga shoots a very flat 50/50 pattern, but the other three all shoot a bit high (maybe 60/40) on the pattern board. However, whether skeet/clays/hunting, I don't notice any difference in any of them regarding how they hit the birds. I have heard of some guns shooting very high or low, and/or left to right enough to miss or cripple birds.
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Most guns are 70/30. I always set mine up for 60/40. Even hunting, birds rise so you really don't want a 50/50 unless you are turkey hunting.
 
CRP said:
For sure, shooting low would be more of a problem. I'd rather float the bird over the bead than have to cover it up. The only problem with higher patterns would be on long dropping clays targets, but that's only on a clays course.
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I don't use my bead, I shoot a shotgun instinctive, similar to archery. I focus on the bird and never see the bead. I subconsciously see the barrel but focus on the bird. It's a better way to shoot when hunting, at least I think it is.
 
westksbowhunter said:
I don't use my bead, I shoot a shotgun instinctive, similar to archery. I focus on the bird and never see the bead. I subconsciously see the barrel but focus on the bird. It's a better way to shoot when hunting, at least I think it is.
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When my bead fell off my Montefeltro about 20 years ago my shooting improved…same thing when the bead fell off my benelli ultralight…both were obnoxious fluorescent deals…a demure silver bead is okay, as my doubles all have…don’t really grab my attention…
 
I don't look at the bead except maybe a straightaway shot, or to check the gun mount for no cast on or off. One of the bad trap habits I had to kick was looking down the barrel at the beads for the "figure-8", which was the main cause for my missed birds. Being LH, I need to shoot neutral cast guns which the RH Citori's are supposed to be. I'm now looking at the LH Citori CX SHOT Show special model, wondering if the palm-swell and 60/40 pattern will mess me up or actually be ok.
 
Especially for your Benelli...have you put a bore-light (any small flashlight) down the barrel to ensure the choke fits true/straight. Both Beretta and Benelli have had issues with this in the past. They'd cut/threaded the barrels a bit poorly. The chokes ended up seating off center. I'd imagine it's still possible that one or two gets out occasionally. I personally had a Beretta that was so bad my pet steel handloads shot a full foot and a half high and to the left.
 
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