More lead ammo shenanigans

[enzinn]

I haven't been following what's going on with the condors much since I don't hunt big game any more or live in their range any more either. I thought they'd taken all the birds into captivity but then I saw recently that they had released a few in the Grand Canyon. If the lead levels are going up while in captivity they need to look at their Condor Chow formula.


Personally, I hope all of them. As it is wardens set up a hunter road block on the Foresthill divide and give out all the tickets they want to write for over limits on squirrels when it opens. Those guys make quail hunting more exciting than it needs to be.

Calamari - I think the lack of robust science and transparency of the work that had been done on the condors is what bothered me the most when that whole thing went down. Condors don't hang out exclusively in the Santa Lucia Mountains, so I don't understand why they first pursued the lead ban for just that area. And what are we in California to do about Arizona, where the condors go when they decide to ridge a thermal into the upper stratosphere?

The lead isotope study was just simply ignored. Why?

It became clear to me during the hearings that it was a play in a multi-step battle to ban hunting altogether in California. The HSUS implants, along with Senator Lieu are committed to chiseling away at the exterior of hunting until there is nothing left. We are so splintered as a community, we are an easy target for focused and targeted attacks. The ban on the use of hounds for Bobcat and Bear hunting was a prime example of the divide and conquer/chisel method. Heck, even without the attacks we sometimes self-destruct - look at the dissolution of COHA in 2013 (http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/features/227404 ).

In the end, the dishonesty was what chapped my hide though.

The thing that is the most unsettling to me though is watching what the Center For Biodiversity is doing to fishing in California. They are very successful at winning crazy court decisions. If they ever turn their attention to hunting, we will have a very skilled adversary with which to contend.

 

[enzinn]

I've been told that steel 6's and 7's are the way to go and since steel loads only pack a 5/8th oz pay load I would think keeping shot size small is better. Thankfully I got over my "trigger happy" phase pretty quickly and limit myself to high average shots, I could probably save enough money to shoot bismuth if took my lunch to work mote often.:thumbsup:

I use the #7 low base Winchester steel loads for snipe at the refuges. That seems to stone them, provided I actually put the bird in the pattern.

I know what you mean on the prioritization of expenses. If I scaled back my drinking on league bowling night, I could afford to blaze away with Remington HD all the time. So many important decisions to make... :cheers:

 

[calamari]

If you give them permission to sterilize 22's what's to stop them from doing the same with your Citori?

Personally, I think it's an issue that's a strawman put up by the NRA and similar groups who think we all should have the ability to own all the AK-47s with 100 round drums we want. Our government will never be more restrictive than Russia when it comes to gun ownership. They prohibit machine guns and pistols but allow every citizen to own 10 long guns. 5 rifled and 5 smooth bore including semi auto actions. I can't think of a single circumstance where that wouldn't be adequate for any purpose because after all you can only shoot two of them at the same time.

 

[calamari]

Thanks for link. How did you know where to find that?

If you go to the DFW website it has a link on the right hand side to lead ban issues. That site has a list of the hearings and actions and what I posted was a link to the most recent hearing and action in the list.

Notice that they are supposed to make the transition the least disruptive to hunters. i can't see how that can be possible but look forward to the attempt.

 

[calamari]

Heck, even without the attacks we sometimes self-destruct - look at the dissolution of COHA in 2013 (http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/features/227404 ).

I think you're right about our ability as hunters to shoot ourselves instead of the hostages. I don't know about " The Outdoor Wire" claim that bribes were paid. In my experience working for a public agency it was always thought that money was exchanged for favorable decisions but over time everyone just came to the conclusion that the elected people we worked for were too stupid to ask for money and just did it because they were fawned over by people.
One thing I would agree with them about is that Bill Gaines was and is a good friend to hunters. I had some dealings with him when he was with CWA and he made it clear that we were his first priority.

 

[Calisdad]

Russia just changed its laws to allow handgun ownership. Requirements are still cloudy as it just happened 11/22/14 but caliber limits are around 9mm with a max 10 round magazine, stun gun/ tazers included.

There are 432 condors. Only 200 in captivity.

This is a case for tort reform. If the CBD were to pay for court costs when they lose (make that 'if') they might back off a bit. Recently they started pushing for reintroduction of the grizzly bear. Now if they had to produce an EIR for every watershed where it's proposed it might cost them some bucks, just like it cost us and the CDFW $1M for every EIR they had to produce to continue stocking streams.

 

[Calisdad]

Time to ban flying. I just read AVGAS is the source of more than half the lead emissions in the US. How did that one slip by?

 

[calamari]

Russia just changed its laws to allow handgun ownership. Requirements are still cloudy as it just happened 11/22/14 but caliber limits are around 9mm with a max 10 round magazine, stun gun/ tazers included.

Even less likely they're going to get my Citori now, Charlie. Besides, by the time they come to get it I'll have given all my ammo to you and you'll have to deal with them.

There are 432 condors. Only 200 in captivity.

Thanks, Charlie. I thought they got all of them. Then again maybe they did and have started to release them back to the wild.

This is a case for tort reform. If the CBD were to pay for court costs when they lose (make that 'if') they might back off a bit. Recently they started pushing for reintroduction of the grizzly bear. Now if they had to produce an EIR for every watershed where it's proposed it might cost them some bucks, just like it cost us and the CDFW $1M for every EIR they had to produce to continue stocking streams.

The California Environmental Quality Act that most of these suits are about was enacted in the 1970s so these state departments should be able to comply with it's requirements. Instead some people in the departments just figure they'll ignore it and then get whole programs jammed up as a result.
The law provides for systemic EIRs that can be modified easily to address specific projects but instead they try to buffalo their way through the process. You're absolutely right Charlie that CBD should and would have to pay their court costs but they win the cases and don't have to. I'd suggest not getting mad at them because DFW does an inadequate job.

 

[calamari]

Time to ban flying. I just read AVGAS is the source of more than half the lead emissions in the US. How did that one slip by?

It didn't...sort of.

By May 2012, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA Unleaded Avgas Transition rulemaking committee) had put together a plan in conjunction with industry to replace leaded avgas with an unleaded alternative within 11 years. Given the progress already made on 100SF and G100UL, the replacement time might be shorter than that 2023 estimate.

 

[Calisdad]

"Even less likely they're going to get my Citori now, Charlie. Besides, by the time they come to get it I'll have given all my ammo to you and you'll have to deal with them."

Too funny- and I was just doing a mental inventory to see which of my safe queens has to go because I can't shoot them anymore.

"It didn't...sort of.

By May 2012, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA Unleaded Avgas Transition rulemaking committee) had put together a plan in conjunction with industry to replace leaded avgas with an unleaded alternative within 11 years. Given the progress already made on 100SF and G100UL, the replacement time might be shorter than that 2023 estimate. "

I've got to quit believing everything I read on the internet.

 

[mnmthunting]

You CA guys are very good a figuring things out. :thumbsup:
I'm from way upnort MN, we don't have Condors or a lead problem?
I'm thinking? For those couple dozen pen raised, released, Condors.
Heck, why not just put out a pile or two of pig guts/cow guts. You could Xray, make sure there's no lead, or other harmful stuff to the pen raised, wild Condors.
Why pass laws, and restrictions, for the few hunters that are left?
Guess I'll have another Leinenkugel. :cheers:

 

[quail hound]

It's funny you say that Wayne, I believe they do regularly feed some of the reintroduced condors. Mostly slaughtered goats I think. :thumbsup:

Honestly if you'd ever seen a gliding Ca condor you would agree that they deserve our respect and protection, but we also deserve that these protections are based on good science.

 

[calamari]

Guess I'll have another Leinenkugel. :cheers:

As always, you seem to find a way to cut to the heart of the matter and come up with a practical solution. Thanks again for that Leinie's!:thumbsup:

I don't think I've ever seen one of them but I do recall that one of the reasons they were almost/ still might be driven to extinction was that during the Calif. gold rush their feathers were so large that the miners used the wing quills as tubes to put their dust in. I was told that by one of my grammar school teachers in a history class so it has to be true. I'd consider seeing one to be on my bucket list if I actually had one.

 

[Calisdad]

Well if you ever find yourself driving HWY 1 South of Big Sur, take Nacimiento-Ferguson Rd down by Kirk Creek. Last time I did that I could look down the mountain at them. They're big alright.

 

[mnmthunting]

It's funny you say that Wayne, I believe they do regularly feed some of the reintroduced condors. Mostly slaughtered goats I think. :thumbsup:

Honestly if you'd ever seen a gliding Ca condor you would agree that they deserve our respect and protection, but we also deserve that these protections are based on good science.

Yes I would like to see one in the wild. For sure the Condors should be protected. I can see starvation of these large carrion eaters to be the number one cause of death. Large birds depending on meat, raised by humans. It seems impossible to expect them to survive in the wild on their own.
Banning lead shot seems to be adding a stepping stone.

 

[ditchparrot19]

One of the biggest roadblocks to the condor's population are the number that are never hatched or don't make it out of the juvenile stage. To start with, they can't reproduce until they're at least 6 years old. Then a pair of them produces just a single egg every 2 years and it sits in a precarious place (on the side of a cliff). They'll lay another one if that one is lost, but there's still no guarantee of anything. Then the juveniles are completely dependent upon the parents for survival for well over a year.

It's just not an efficient system and there isn't a great deal that can be done about it.

 

[enzinn]

As always, you seem to find a way to cut to the heart of the matter and come up with a practical solution. Thanks again for that Leinie's!:thumbsup:

I don't think I've ever seen one of them but I do recall that one of the reasons they were almost/ still might be driven to extinction was that during the Calif. gold rush their feathers were so large that the miners used the wing quills as tubes to put their dust in. I was told that by one of my grammar school teachers in a history class so it has to be true. I'd consider seeing one to be on my bucket list if I actually had one.

I'll have to dredge my library for the studies on their long term demise, but as I recall the thinking was that the Condor's fate was sealed when the climate shifted from a glacial maximum to a warming trend approximately 18,000 years ago. They were used to feeding on the larger chunks of carrion that were around back then and never really did a good job of adapting to the newer regime of smaller mammals that came with the warming trend and rising sea levels. Their extinction was ostensibly a fait accompli thousands of years ago - we just happened to add the last blow to what few of them remained with our industrial age contributions to the environment.

This might actually be an actual case of adapt or die - the geological and fossil record is full of those cases, almost entirely driven by species change brought on by either a long-term cooling trend or a long-term warming trend. Most Californians can't comprehend the passage of time on that scale, or the changes that accompany it (even if you removed anthropogenic contribution).

I'll never forget the initial discussions about "restoring and preserving" the slough environment of Moss Landing. I remember asking the question, "which millennium do you want to restore?" People looked at me like I was some form of butt rash or something. Explaining to them that the slough and dunes fronting the slough were the result of dynamic changes brought about the glacial maximum which peaked 18,000 years ago, followed by the rapid sea level rise (about 375 feet) to roughly where it is today about 5,000 years ago didn't help matters. They just knew that they wanted to spend money to freeze the conditions, which is a losing battle in that geological setting. I feel like saving the Condors is a lot like that - impressive in its' scope, but similar to putting all your money down on a horse that has never won a race.

 

[ditchparrot19]

I feel like saving the Condors is a lot like that - impressive in its' scope, but similar to putting all your money down on a horse that has never won a race.

Yep. The simple truth is that the era in which that species can actually thrive has come and gone.

 

[Calisdad]

Yep. The simple truth is that the era in which that species can actually thrive has come and gone.

Sounds a lot like another species we are all familiar with.

Speaking of Moss Landing, not too many years ago the fishermen dredged the harbor so the could get in and out. They planned to take the mud out to sea, just as they always had. They were stopped, seemed the mud was full of DDT from the surrounding farm fields. Everyone with a pulse knows fishermen don't use DDT but here they were, stuck with a problem they didn't create.

 

[enzinn]

Sounds a lot like another species we are all familiar with.

Speaking of Moss Landing, not too many years ago the fishermen dredged the harbor so the could get in and out. They planned to take the mud out to sea, just as they always had. They were stopped, seemed the mud was full of DDT from the surrounding farm fields. Everyone with a pulse knows fishermen don't use DDT but here they were, stuck with a problem they didn't create.

As I recall, there was also leaded paint chips in spoils too, which may have come from boats. Nasty stuff.