Lack of chase

A

andyj

New member
I'm currently training my 8-month old Chessie (Axel) for upland/Pheasant bird hunting with the help of a veteran bird dog trainer. We have gone through six lessons so far which entail placing birds in a small field and working Axel to find, flush, and give chase to the birds.

We are stuck at this time with a puzzling behavior that I hope someone else can shed light on. Axel is decent at finding the bird and flushing it but when the bird takes flight, he does not give chase to it! The trainer, who has decades of experience, says he has never trained a Chessie that did this.

I know Chessie's can be stubborn but I thought chase would instinctual. Does he simply need more experience with birds? Axel does fine chasing after dummies and cats.

One thought I have is to hunt him with my Chocolate lab (a good hunter) and see if he picks it up from her.
 
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I'm a little confused here. Why do you want your dog to chase flushed birds? I think under normal circumstances dogs are generally trained to be steady to shot and not chase after flushed birds. My Britts are not steady to shot but that is my preference as I want the dog to take after the bird once it is shot to minimize losing cripples. But my dogs don't chase after birds that fly away. Have you shot birds over him? Does he go to them and retrieve to hand? As long as he finds and retrieves bird you shoot I wouldn't worry about him "chasing" after every bird that flushes.

Maybe there are some members here that can provide some assistance with this issue.
 
I agree with Zeb on this one. There have been discussions on this site about training steady to shot. My labs do are not steady to shot and have never tried to make them be. There are times that I wish they were though. I do not think that you have a problem as long as the dog retrieves.
 
I agree with Zeb, that is the way my dog is trained also......Bob
 
In response to Dakotazeb:

It's not that I want him to chase but rather to exhibit more enthusiasm for hunting birds. I should have made that more clear. Chasing can also be a curse when a hen flushes and he goes to the next County after it.

We haven't shot birds over him yet. The original plan was that he would take chase and we could introduce the starter pistol at an appropriate distance away while working up to a shotgun and getting progressively closer. The theory is that he would be so excited about the bird to not notice the gun or to associate something positive with it.

I spoke to Axel's breeder this evening and we've come up with a better plan. We are going to work with the breeder and introduce him to gunshot using bumper tossing and a starter pistol (at a distance). This way, we can get the gun introduction out of the way and proceed to actually shooting birds over him. Only then can we work on the retrieval aspect.
 
andyj,

Look, your Chessie is only 8 months old. Have some patience and give him some time to develop. Getting him on a lot of birds and shooting birds over him will likely help a lot. I wouldn't waste the time and money right now on this percieved problem. Take him through the upcoming hunting season. If by the end of the season he still isn't showing more enthusiasm then you might want to work more with a trainer. Right now I would concentrate on obedience training and retrieving, and also getting him use to the sound of a shotgun. Then just get him in the field as much as possible.

You are also kind of fighting a breed issue here. Upland hunting is, and never will be, a Chessie's long suit. Not that they can't be made into an adequate upland dog, it's just not what they were bred to do. Kind of like trying to make a pheasant dog out of a Beagle. They were bred for rabbits, not pheasants.

Good luck and let us know how Axel does hunting this fall.
 
Andy,

I have always believed that a dog's sense of drive is mostly genetics. Were both sire and dam hunting dogs. This can make a difference. On the flip side, 8 months is still a young pup. A strong obedience mindset will set the ground work for all of pup's future training. At this age IMO you want to be working on basic stuff. Be careful you don't expect too much, too soon.

Good luck to you.

Lefty
 
a bit confused?

Please, not in an attempt to be insulting here as every dog owner has his own opinions, desires, etc. ...

But I don't understand your desire to have him chase, either. If the dog hunts birds and retrieves what you shoot over him he's showing his natural instincts and desires. A dog that chases a flushed bird takes the risk of chasing right into a load of birdshot! I would get him used to gunshot away from birds first, then introduce him to shooting over birds so that you do not run the risk of a gunshy dog associating the bad loudness with birds.

I have always owned English Setters and I do not want them to chase after a bumped or flushed bird. If he flushes the bird that's bad enough, but chasing shows me he's made a conscious choice to not hold point. Even with a flushing breed, chasing to me shows a dog not in control and I want to be in control.

I've never hunted with a Chessie, but aren't they breed to be large dogs, with a thick coat, meant to be able to withstand a swim in very cold water, to be hardy, cold weather dogs? Seems to me wanting a Chessie as a pheasant dog is like asking an offensive tackle to run a marathon?

Again, I'm not trying to be overly critical or start a fight. My setter is a large Laverack type and Llewellyn owners will think him way to large and not big enough in the run. I'll take that criticism because those guys have different desires and tastes than me. Personal preference. But I like the big foot shooting setter because I want him to hunt close while in the grouse woods where it's tough to find a dog out 100 yards on point. I've chosen my breed for the job I want him to do.

Good luck in developing your pup. The early years are a lot of work, but the end results are worth the time and effort.
 
andyj,
I understand what you're saying and I agree that an 8 month old pup should be chasing once the bird flushes. Granted, as the dog matures and training begins, most don't want them to chase. Not sure what all you've done to try to get the pup more fired up on birds, but I would not shoot a bird for him unless he's fired up enough to chase birds.
My buddy had a pup a few years back. She had a good nose and would look like a million bucks on point, but once the bird flushed she would stand and watch it fly off. Being naive at the time, we thought this was great and after a few weeks began shooting a .22 over her. Long story short, we ended up with a gun shy/bird shy shorthair on our hands. It was confusing as heck, but looking back on it now, she should have been more fired up and chasing the birds beings she was 7 months old and we shot over her too soon. Hope this helps, KansasGSP
 
I have never responded to a post before, but given that it is raining here and we can't train, I feel obliged to lend my opinion.

First of all, some other posts (no doubt well meaning) have indicated that your dog should not be allowed to give chase, or should be introduced to gunfire away from birds. This could not be further from the truth. It is very important that your young dog be allowed to chase at this stage of his development. If the procedure that you have described is repeated enough, his drive should improve. I would also let him catch and retrieve birds as well. Pull the flight feathers from one wing and let him see you toss the bid into an area of low cover where the dog can catch it easily. Later toss the live bird into heavier cover so that he has to put on a hunt to find it. Remember that we are talking about a retrieving/flushing dog here. We would never want a pointing dog to catch birds, but that is for another discussion.

We want to build that dog's passion for birds. We will later use this chasing to safely introduce him/her to gunfire while he is chasing a bird, but only after we have him bird crazy. Remember that is is easy to get a dog that is crazy about birds under control. However, a dog with limited prey drive will never amount to much. The dog's genetic potential is very important, but that genetic potential can only be reached by giving the pup lots of bird exposure.

One of the worst things that a person can do is to try to put too much control on a young dog. Too much pressure is a sure fire way to ruin a young dog or at the least, limit their potential.

Let's be clear here, in that we do want to encourage the dog to chase, but clearly we are not going to allow him to chase it out of the county. After a short chase the dog should be called back in. This of course assumes that the dog has had some basic obedience training, which by this age should be very solid.

Some of the advice in the previous posts has been very good.....and some has been very bad. Be careful who you listen to. Training one or two "wonder" dogs doesn't make you an expert. I have been doing this for 18 years now and the dogs are still teaching me every day. Best of luck to you and your dog.

Regards,

Travis
 
I sure appreciate everyone's comments.

Chessies make good upland bird hunting dogs despite having been bred for hardier purposes. They may not be a good choice for smaller low-flying birds (e.g. quail) but they are well suited to flush grouse and pheasants. On the plus side, they are great protectors, family dogs, and have no issues retrieving a kicking, honking goose ;-). This is the second Chessie we've owned and we really like the breed for all its qualities combined.

All I'm trying to do right now is build passion for birds. It sounds like from the posts that I should just be patient and expose him to as many birds as I can. I do see him improve every time I take him to the field, so that's good.
 
Dakotazeb said:
andyj,

Look, your Chessie is only 8 months old. Have some patience and give him some time to develop. Getting him on a lot of birds and shooting birds over him will likely help a lot. I wouldn't waste the time and money right now on this percieved problem. Take him through the upcoming hunting season. If by the end of the season he still isn't showing more enthusiasm then you might want to work more with a trainer. Right now I would concentrate on obedience training and retrieving, and also getting him use to the sound of a shotgun. Then just get him in the field as much as possible.

You are also kind of fighting a breed issue here. Upland hunting is, and never will be, a Chessie's long suit. Not that they can't be made into an adequate upland dog, it's just not what they were bred to do. Kind of like trying to make a pheasant dog out of a Beagle. They were bred for rabbits, not pheasants.

Good luck and let us know how Axel does hunting this fall.
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My thoughts exactly. He is not that old yet. I live in SD which is an advantage for starting dogs. I take them hunting at 4 months or less and they can keep up, get lost whatever. Usually they follow you around in the thick stuff and start moving out in the thinner cover.
What we are talking about here is prey drive and not all pups demonstrate
it at the same level. You cannot "teach" it per se as the dog has it or not, but you can encourage it and bring it out if it is there.
One trick is to let it chase and catch a few pen birds that have had primaries removed. Use pheasants at his age. We do this with pups at 2-3 moths--piegons, Chuks etc. Its ok to let them kill them and tear them up at this point.
No prey drive ,no search.
________
KISSING ADVICE DICUSSION
 
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Dakotazeb said:
andyj,

Look, your Chessie is only 8 months old. Have some patience and give him some time to develop. Getting him on a lot of birds and shooting birds over him will likely help a lot. I wouldn't waste the time and money right now on this percieved problem. Take him through the upcoming hunting season. If by the end of the season he still isn't showing more enthusiasm then you might want to work more with a trainer. Right now I would concentrate on obedience training and retrieving, and also getting him use to the sound of a shotgun. Then just get him in the field as much as possible.
Click to expand...

Andy I agree with Zeb's thinking on this part, I have hunted over chessies for about 15years and they are just as good upland hunting as they are duck hunting, but the key word is "PATIENTS" with this breed. In my experience if take your time training all that frustration and sweat will pay for it in the end believe me, I have a 2yr chessie male who is ready for some serious duckhunting this year. hang in there and let us know how you are doing.

Uncle Buck said:
My thoughts exactly. He is not that old yet. I live in SD which is an advantage for starting dogs. I take them hunting at 4 months or less and they can keep up, get lost whatever. Usually they follow you around in the thick stuff and start moving out in the thinner cover.
What we are talking about here is prey drive and not all pups demonstrate
it at the same level. You cannot "teach" it per se as the dog has it or not, but you can encourage it and bring it out if it is there.
One trick is to let it chase and catch a few pen birds that have had primaries removed. Use pheasants at his age. We do this with pups at 2-3 moths--piegons, Chuks etc. Its ok to let them kill them and tear them up at this point.
No prey drive ,no search.
Click to expand...


+1
 
I started hunting my last lab at 5 months. He just followed along and took it all in. By the end of the season he was flushing and retrieving on his own. I am true believer in starting them young and getting them large amounts of bird exposure.
 
DakotaZeb has given you some excellent advice. My Brittany his 1st season knew how to retrieve. But he just did not want to do it. The last day of the season, he had a grand time chasing down a cripple pheasant. He picked it up when he caught up with it and has been retrieving even since. Just give Axel time in the field with the birds. They will make a hunting dog out of him.......Bob
 
We had a great training session with Axel on Sunday at the breeder's place. We're fortunate to have a breeder that also hunts (a lot) and agreed to help with the training. Anyway, we did an intro to gun noise and progressed up to using a dummy launcher next to him. He was sooo intense on the dummies that he pays no attention to the sound of shot. Needless to say, I'm glad that step is over with. We've been working with him every night using dummies with pheasant wings taped around them. We keep in the house at first then drag the dummy across the lawn to a hiding spot. He finds it every time! Next Sunday we'll be training him on live Pheasants; can hardly wait.

I really appreciate all the comments and advice from everyone. It has helped a lot for to adjust my expectations to what is normal for such a dog at his age.
 
Patience is certainly needed for Chessies; our breeder always reminds us that. Many trainers have difficulty with the breed because they are very intelligent and think for themselves. If they don't agree with you then they flip you the proverbial bird and go about it their way! The key is to get trick them into doing what you expect and that it was really their idea to begin with. Many hunters won't tolerate this and prefer Labradors and other retrievers that are easier to train. Nothing wrong with that - I also have a great Labrador- but there is something special I like about a powerful workaholic Chessie that is also a generalist hunter like myself.
 
Definitely agree with comments about young pup. Patience, patience and more patience. This season should be about fun and gaining experience for the dog.
 
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