Hickox vs Dokken

I have the George Hickox train your pointing dog DVD which I watched before igot my puppy. His method of e-collar training made sense to me, and I assumed I would just follow it with Oxford. Then I got my SportDog collar and it came with Tom Dokken training DVD. Their methods are very different. I was hoping some of you could convince me which method is better.
 
Well, use them both. No trainer in the country will tell you there is a one tracked rail to ride while training a dog. There is general rules and goals to follow. But what works for one dog may not work for another, That is what good trainers can do. "Adapt" you have to be able to read quick, evaluate, and decide.Realize fast when your wrong. Every trainer get stuff wrong. The good ones see it and change what they are doing to what works. All are in a continuous learning process. The trainers that are closed minded are the ones that fail. So with that, learn as much as you can where ever you can, knowledge is power. Mix it up, and try changing an approach if something is not working.
 
Well, use them both. No trainer in the country will tell you there is a one tracked rail to ride while training a dog. There is general rules and goals to follow. But what works for one dog may not work for another, That is what good trainers can do. "Adapt" you have to be able to read quick, evaluate, and decide.Realize fast when your wrong. Every trainer get stuff wrong. The good ones see it and change what they are doing to what works. All are in a continuous learning process. The trainers that are closed minded are the ones that fail. So with that, learn as much as you can where ever you can, knowledge is power. Mix it up, and try changing an approach if something is not working.

Just make sure that you aren't confusing the dog by mixing methods.
 
I guess the question for me is... Do I follow Hickox and use continuous stimulation to help enforce the command during training. Or Dokken who says don't use any stim until the dog is 100% on the command and then you nick stim as you give the command. To me these seem like completely opposite methods. Both make sense I guess. I was just wondering what other fellas on here have used and with what success in the past?
 
I didn't know I was using Hickox at the time, but it sounds like I have been down that path. Very confusing for the dog, had to backtrack and proceed the other direction. It was only one dog, so take it for what it is.

I'm curious what others have to say.

I'd see if I could barrow old collections of Gun Dog, Retriever Journal, Pointing Dog Journal. A lot of information from all sides of the fence, then pick and choose what makes sense to you. And if something doesn't work, there is always another way.

Best of luck.:thumbsup:
 
I guess I'm just an old fool, but I'd try to train the dog with good old fashioned love, encouragment, swift verbal and mild physical correction when necessary.I have found over the years, if correction becomes very physical, whether it's an e-collar or a muzzle squeeze and tap, to much much worse, it's a failure of the trainer, not the dog, and the results are diminishing returns, requiring more and more stimulation to less and less effect. Best scenario is never put you dog in a position to fail, or create a situation where the dog can supply an action or response you can't predict. Mistakes will be made, but can be accidental, like a bumped bird, and ignored, unless becoming a pattern, once is an accident, twice on consecutive days is a pattern. Yes e-collars can be described as gentler, as apposed to beatings. Especially since we have no way of measuring mental stress accurately in a dog. No marks, means no harm, that's why the black ops guys use rubber hoses on the bottom of feet, and electrical stimulus. Quick is not always best, if we train all dogs with e-collars, then those dogs who survive and become successful when trained by e-collar, are subsequently bred because they were successful and trained with an e-collar, pretty soon, we have ONLY dogs which can be trained by e-collars. Some breeds are pretty much there now. Are we better off. So my advice is choose your pup carefully, use correction of any kind judiciously, expect perfection in your dog, when your capable of the same. The methods described are developed by pro's who mow through dogs by the numbers, get fast results, not some individual who is training a life partner. I think I'd rather have Barbara Woodhouse train my dog. The art of dog training is to make the dog do what he'ssupposed to because he wants to, based on his relationship with you! Not because he has to, or has been forced. you can train a lion or tiger to do that, but take off the collar and put away the whip, and ask Ziegfried and Roy how that works.
 
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In light of the previous comments, it is interesting to note that Hickox has really changed his training methods from those depicted on his training pointing dogs DVD. He is now a proponent of clicker training.
 
I guess the question for me is... Do I follow Hickox and use continuous stimulation to help enforce the command during training. Or Dokken who says don't use any stim until the dog is 100% on the command and then you nick stim as you give the command. To me these seem like completely opposite methods. Both make sense I guess. I was just wondering what other fellas on here have used and with what success in the past?

Question? Are you stating Hickox is using continuous stim to enforce commands without the dog being solid on the command? I would have to believe that he... just as Dokkens is not using stim unless and until the dog fully understands the command given. To do so otherwise would not make any sense. The whole premise of overlaying the e collar regardless of each trainers technique is to enforce... not teach. The dog learns how to turn the collar off by complying to a known command.
 
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I would never train a dog off of strictly what I saw in a DVD. You might have a 1 hour teaching aid in a dvd. If you want to know a trainers methods take 20 hours and read their book on their methods. Then reread it(if you're like me). Dvd's serve a purpose as visual presentation of an idea but very seldom cover everything in detail. I think of Dokken more as a retriever guy and Hickox more of a pointing dog guy. I have read Dokken's book however, and will apply his pressure on pressure off concept with my next pup. Have been to a number of seminars through Navhda and every pro trainer always talked about using e collars to reinforce a known command. Not to train the original command.
 
I have the George Hickox train your pointing dog DVD which I watched before igot my puppy. His method of e-collar training made sense to me, and I assumed I would just follow it with Oxford. Then I got my SportDog collar and it came with Tom Dokken training DVD. Their methods are very different. I was hoping some of you could convince me which method is better.
Jmd2, my take on e-collar training is best summed up in the accompanying link.
I haven't watched either video and maybe its covered. But if not, here goes.
Continuous stimulation, escape training; dogs is given a known command, stimulation is applied and dog responds by obeying command turning off stimulation. With this method the dog is not allowed to respond before stimulation is applied.
Momentary stimulation, avoidance training; dog is given a known command, dog refuses a reply , command repeated preceded by no and momentary stimulation.
This is what I have used in training the retrievers I've owned. Some with collars some without. They learn the command no first, then the commands.

All the commands are learned through incidental contact. If the puppy is doing something that warrents the word no, you take away the temptation and tell them no. Sit, anticipate the action apply the command during the action. Here, come, fetch, heal, kennel it's all the same.
Once the puppy knows all the commands, then you combine no and the commands.........Sit...No SIT......Here... No HERE... Heal... No HEAL......Hold...No HOLD.......Fetch.. No...Fetch
Pointing Dog No...WHOA kind of similar. Maybe...... Stop... HERE... Stop..Fetch.....Stop..WHOA
http://leerburg.com/qa/qna.php?id=812
 
A real good source for the info you are asking is on the Tritronics BB. Even if you don't use one of their collars the people on there wil guide you and let you know how to handle the situation. Kninebirdog is a moderator and will be happy to help.
 
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