Here Kitty Kitty

Golddog said:
its not unheard of to hear of mountain lion sightings in the area
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While there is no evidence of an established, reproducing population here, they do on rare occasion move through. Its always a younger male looking for new territory. I think the nearest reproducing population is in the Black Hills.

Two years ago there was one in the suburbs of the Twin Cities. Several home owners caught it on their security cameras. Two days later it was hit by a car.
 
gimruis said:
While there is no evidence of an established, reproducing population here, they do on rare occasion move through. Its always a younger male looking for new territory. I think the nearest reproducing population is in the Black Hills.

Two years ago there was one in the suburbs of the Twin Cities. Several home owners caught it on their security cameras. Two days later it was hit by a car.
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Maybe 4-5 years ago a female was hit on 494 just south of Minneapolis. I don't buy the DNR "no breeding population" line.

*Fact checking myself, that was a male.

There was also one hit just a couple miles away from me on 394. If they are getting hit in the metro every couple years, I gotta believe there's a decent population in Minnesota.
 
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mutthunt said:
Maybe 4-5 years ago a female was hit on 494 just south of Minneapolis. I don't buy the DNR "no breeding population" line.

*Fact checking myself, that was a male.
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That's the incident I was referring to above. I am pretty sure it was just over 2 years ago. And yes it was a male. It was about 10 miles from my house.

There has been no evidence of a breeding population in the area. You need a female and/or a litter to confirm that. Young males roam vast distances seeking new territory. That's exactly what occurs. They just wander through. I operate on black and white evidence. If they are reproducing here, I need to see proof of it. There is none.
 
If there was an established breeding population of mountain lions in Minnesota there would be more caught on trail cams. For some reason mountain lions do not set up and live in Minnesota. I suspect in the northern third of MN the reason is wolves. Along SE MN I suspect people (population density) is just a bit too high.

There are some good articles on how mountain lions have become even more reclusive in the Yellowstone area as wolves and wolf packs were reestablished.

There are viable breeding populations of mountain lions in both SD (Black Hills) and ND (Badlands). North Dakota has a mountain lion season and even allow use of dogs for part of the season. I believe most years the kill quota is reached in ND.
 
mutthunt said:
Maybe 4-5 years ago a female was hit on 494 just south of Minneapolis. I don't buy the DNR "no breeding population" line.

*Fact checking myself, that was a male.

There was also one hit just a couple miles away from me on 394. If they are getting hit in the metro every couple years, I gotta believe there's a decent population in Minnesota.
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Last year, a waterfowl hunter who was scouting some public land encountered one. It was growling at him as he backed out of the swamp grasses. I don't know that he ever saw it, just heard it coming toward him. Had his phone in one hand, videoing what was going on and a gun in the other, I believe. This was north of Saint James MN. We were hunting 20 minutes or so away at the time. I've avoided that area since then, but hopefully the cat has moved on.
 
mutthunt said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the DNR saying there is no breeding population here. If there was, could you imagine how some folks would want to protect them, like they do with the wolves?
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I am not a predator hunter. Just not something I am interested in doing. But we need a season on wolves. They need to have more of a fear of humans. Almost lost my dog, Honey, to one in early October, ruffed grouse hunting. Had 2 encounters in 2 weeks in 2 completely different forests, with the 2nd one being not good at all. Each time, I was 40-50 yards from the dog, and the wolves had to have heard me walking and communicating with her as we went through the woods. But instead of clearing out of the area, they chose to hang around. Not good.

I may not be able to risk going ruffed grouse hunting again after this. If I do go, it will probably be in areas with a lot of human activity, which is not the best hunting, but might be the safest, under the circumstances.
 
Limitless said:
But we need a season on wolves. They need to have more of a fear of humans.
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I agree. A lottery drawn, quota-based hunting and/or trapping season is the solution. Managed by each state. That has occured twice when they were removed from the Endangered Species List, only to be overturned in federal court by a judge.

Unfortunately, until they are federally removed from that protective status, nothing can be done by the states (Great Lakes wolves). Western wolves are not protected federally, as they are managed by the states because they are not covered by the ESA.

Clearly they've met or exceeded their population goals in MN, WI, and the MI UP. Many of them have lost their fear of people and have become brazen and bold. Just the threat of being hunted or trapped would change their behavior around us.

I'm not saying they should be eradicated like we once did when people expanded westward. They are a natural apex predator that belongs on the landscape. But they still need to be managed properly by each state.

Statistcially, the chances of an encounter is very low. But it can happen, as it seems you've already experienced it. People who recreate outdoors in wolf country, especially with dogs, need to understand that there is this risk, even if its minimal. Thousands and thousands of grouse hunters enter the forests of MN, WI, and MI every fall without an issue.

Brittman is a pretty knowledgable individual with wolves so maybe he will chime in on the subject.

You really can't compare lions to wolves either. They aren't hunted or managed the same way. Lions are individual predators, and wolves are pack hunters. Wolves are canines, lions are felines. Lions are not endangered, wolves are (according to federal law). So its like comparing apple to oranges here.

I deer hunted in wolf country east of Leech Lake at deer camp with 9 other guys for 25 years. Not a single one of use ever saw a wolf. Ever. That's a heck of a lot of man-hours in the woods without so much as even a visual sighting. So the notion that they crawling all over the landscape like locusts is simply not true. They are elusive, smart, pack-hunting predators that generally are more active at night. A lot of deer hunters love to blame their lack of success solely on wolves. There's way more to the riddle than that though. Many factors go into deer populations, and predators are just a part of that.
 
gimruis said:
I agree. A lottery drawn, quota-based hunting and/or trapping season is the solution. Managed by each state. That has occured twice when they were removed from the Endangered Species List, only to be overturned in federal court by a judge.

Unfortunately, until they are federally removed from that protective status, nothing can be done by the states (Great Lakes wolves). Western wolves are not protected federally, as they are managed by the states because they are not covered by the ESA.

Clearly they've met or exceeded their population goals in MN, WI, and the MI UP. Many of them have lost their fear of people and have become brazen and bold. Just the threat of being hunted or trapped would change their behavior around us.

I'm not saying they should be eradicated like we once did when people expanded westward. They are a natural apex predator that belongs on the landscape. But they still need to be managed properly by each state.

Statistcially, the chances of an encounter is very low. But it can happen, as it seems you've already experienced it. People who recreate outdoors in wolf country, especially with dogs, need to understand that there is this risk, even if its minimal. Thousands and thousands of grouse hunters enter the forests of MN, WI, and MI every fall without an issue.

Brittman is a pretty knowledgable individual with wolves so maybe he will chime in on the subject.

You really can't compare lions to wolves either. They aren't hunted or managed the same way. Lions are individual predators, and wolves are pack hunters. Wolves are canines, lions are felines. Lions are not endangered, wolves are (according to federal law). So its like comparing apple to oranges here.

I deer hunted in wolf country east of Leech Lake at deer camp with 9 other guys for 25 years. Not a single one of use ever saw a wolf. Ever. That's a heck of a lot of man-hours in the woods without so much as even a visual sighting. So the notion that they crawling all over the landscape like locusts is simply not true. They are elusive, smart, pack-hunting predators that generally are more active at night. A lot of deer hunters love to blame their lack of success solely on wolves. There's way more to the riddle than that though. Many factors go into deer populations, and predators are just a part of that.
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I am preferential to a hunting season on them, instead of or in addition to trapping, only because I think that will instill more wariness of humans, vs them seeing an inanimate trap catch one of their pack. I am also leary about traps in woods when we have dogs out there. If they made the trapping season in July and August, or even January and February, that could work.

I get the statistics thing, and I had never encountered them before, other than when deer hunting in the St Croix State Park a few years ago. Either something was different this year that adjusted their behaviors or they are getting so prevalent that the stats picture is changing. It is possible we we just really unlucky to encounter 2 in 8 days time. Also possible it is something about my dog that attracted them. But even if that is so, they should have hightailed it out of there knowing I was behind her.

The second spot is one I have hunted since 2011, multiple times, without incident. Same stretch of woods. The only year I didn't hunt it was last year.

We use grouse/Woodcock hunting more as a "get in shape for pheasant season" thing than anything. It is more convenient than pheasant hunting too, since we live closer to grouse woods than pheasant fields. I'm considering trying some sharp-tailed grouse instead during that time period, since they are out in the open. The negative being the long drive to NW MN to get to them.
 
There are bear hunters in WI who use dogs and who have lost dogs to wolves. Theoretically, it is because the dogs roam far ahead of the hunters. That (dogs being far from the hunter) can happen with a pointer though too, when grouse hunting. In my case, it was only 40-50 yards, not hundreds.
 
Limitless said:
I am preferential to a hunting season on them, instead of or in addition to trapping, only because I think that will instill more wariness of humans, vs them seeing an inanimate trap catch one of their pack. I am also leary about traps in woods when we have dogs out there. If they made the trapping season in July and August, or even January and February, that could work.
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I want to say when MN had a season on them, trapping was far more effective than hunting. It was more than double. The trapping season was held in January I think, after hunting seasons had ended, and their pelts were in prime status. The hunting season was held during the MN firearms deer season. The thought here was it would hopefully increase the liklihood of encountering one already being in the woods to hunt deer.

Wisconsin does allow dogs to hunt bear, and when they had a season, they allowed dogs to hunt wolves. The difference here is that a bear just hops in a tree and you shoot it. Wolves either 1) just run and run, or 2) fight back. Using hounds is a far more effective method than hunting or trapping like MN allowed. Wisconsin bear hunters understand the risk using hounds in wolf country. They accept that risk.

The map below shows their range slowly expanding south/west. I don't know how much farther they can go. The line from western Wisconsin northwestward towards Fargo is where the main timber line meets the ag. I don't see packs of wolves living in farm country. There just isn't enough cover or large prey to support them. But maybe I'm wrong and we'll find out. I deer, turkey, and pheasant hunt not far from the line in Central MN.
 

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gimruis said:
I want to say when MN had a season on them, trapping was far more effective than hunting. It was more than double.
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I am sure it would be effective for thinning the population. I am speaking of effectiveness of instilling a fear of humans. I think being shot at and seeing another wolf shot by a human would instill that fear more than a trap would.

I thought they had an early hunting season, and then a regular hunting season in MN when it was allowed. The more they can spread out the season, the better for instilling fear/respect.

gimruis said:
The trapping season was held in January I think, after hunting seasons had ended, and their pelts were in prime status. The hunting season was held during the MN firearms deer season. The thought here was it would hopefully increase the liklihood of encountering one already being in the woods to hunt deer.

Wisconsin does allow dogs to hunt bear, and when they had a season, they allowed dogs to hunt wolves. The difference here is that a bear just hops in a tree and you shoot it. Wolves either 1) just run and run, or 2) fight back. Using hounds is a far more effective method than hunting or trapping like MN allowed.
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That would be a risky business using dogs to hunt wolves. A relative was dating a guy who hunted bear with dogs. Even there he would have dogs killed and injured by bear. But if that is what someone wants to do, go for it. It will be pretty sad if it gets to a state where the typical hunter can't grouse hunt with pointers for fear of losing dogs.
 
Limitless said:
That would be a risky business using dogs to hunt wolves. A relative was dating a guy who hunted bear with dogs. Even there he would have dogs killed and injured by bear. But if that is what someone wants to do, go for it. It will be pretty sad if it gets to a state where the typical hunter can't grouse hunt with pointers for fear of losing dogs.
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Wolves are canines and canines do not tolerate other canines in their territory. That includes other wolves, coyotes, and domesticated dogs. Even if there is a hunting season on them, their behavior towards other canines isn't going to change much. Its just how they operate. What might change is how they perceive a person without a dog.
 
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