Help building confidence and other...

outdoorslife89

outdoorslife89

New member
Hello everyone. Many of ya's have seen my posts about Remi so there no need to get into to many details here unless needed to help me out(ask away!). I do have some questions and comments for yas, if ya don't mind...

What are some things I can do to keep building her confidence level? Shes a 4 month old black lab...

Some days shes got the confidence while other times she does not. Will this just be a growing up thing and with time it will get better? There are many times where she doesnt want to walk in front of me/lead the way in areas foreign to her but of course we all know the end goal(albeit a long ways from now) is to have her out front and leading the way. I do NOT drag her when this happens but Ill continue walking and she will either follow or sit and then I give the come command(if she sits) and she feels at ease and follows again. If I turn around to go back the other way she will then lead as she now "knows" this area she just walked. I think much of this could be normal but Im not so sure that's why Im here asking....

Also, although we are not even close to doing the proper intro to gunfire she does at times react negatively to loud noises. Its got me concerned for when that time comes but we do have a good plan on how to go about this when shes ready. There is no rhyme or reason to what noises she reacts negatively to, or at least that we've caught on to and figured out. Ill give a quick example of one she did overcome. In the beginning I would take her out early mornin' a couple times before work and on the last trip out Id remote start my truck and it would freak her out, even from a good distance. She now realizes its ok and is fine with it. Do I just continue to expose her to new things/places, let the noises happen(out of my control then obviously) and when these noises happen continue to go about our way like nothing happened and everything is ok? Any suggestions, please? I don't coddle her when this happens as Ive seen that's a pretty big no-no.

So those are a couple questions/comments/concerns. These are pretty big topics if I want a good gun dog. A dog with no desire or scared of loud noises and Im out of the game. Everyone here as already been a big help and it cant be stated how appreciated it is!
 
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As far as gun fire and noises, why in the world would you think you are not even close to intro of the gun? I always start intro to gunfire at 8 weeks with a training pistol (not a starting pistol). What I do is have my wife get about 100 yds away and as I am feeding the puppy and he dives into the bowl of food, she fires off a shot from the training pistol. We do this for one week, then move into 90 yds, then the next week 80 yds. And you should get the idea of how it works. We are associating gunfire with something positive and to be honest the puppy's never acknowledge the noise. They just want to eat. And while we are doing this, we are also doing marks in the field with a thrower and a gun man. Again at a distance. Intro to birds at 8 weeks is also done the same way. And again, birds are positive and something the puppy wants to sink its teeth into. Then by about 4 months of age, we began marks in the field with the shotgun gradually moving in. Gunfire and retrieving are positive things in the eyes of the puppy. Then at about 6 months the puppy gets it's first live flyer shot for him.

I am not worried by the puppy's confidence because I am taking care of that for him. Maybe your pups reaction to loud noises is not the pups fault but a failure to intro that phase of training at the proper age. I would encourage you get a training pistol from Gundog Supply, or Lion Country and began a proper intro to the gun.

As far as a pups confidence in getting out and away from you, there is nothing better than live birds. And lots of them. At 4 months of age you should be following a good training program such as Fowl Dogs. You just can't fly by the seat of your pants and develop a confident dog. Check out the following link. http://www.gundogsupply.com/fowl-dogs-dvd-set.html
 
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I would try and find a school or place lots of kids are at and expose her to people so she's socialized and not worry about it

Fwiw I like long guns for gun intro and if you live somewhere that bird exist wait until she's chasing pheasants so her prey drive is way up to introduce gun

if she's a retriever get her really excited about retrieving then let her break and chase during a retrieve and throw the dummy in a high arc and time the shot right as she's almost grabbing the dummy

what you are doing is letting her prey drive and excitement overcome any noise sensitivity

then if she shows no notice of the gun report you can gradually bring the timing of the shot closer in the arc,until it's all the way back to before you toss the dummy

this will take a couple weeks of daily work if your cautious, which with a dog that shows noise sensitivity like yours you should be.

long guns have lower muzzle blasts and you can direct them away from the pup easier than a pistol
 
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bobman said:
I would try and find a school or place lots of kids are at and expose her to people so she's socialized and not worry about it

Fwiw I like long guns for gun intro and if you live somewhere that bird exist wait until she's chasing pheasants so her prey drive is way up to introduce gun

if she's a retriever get her really excited about retrieving then let her break and chase during a retrieve and throw the dummy in a high arc and time the shot right as she's almost grabbing the dummy

what you are doing is letting her prey drive and excitement overcome any noise sensitivity

then if she shows no notice of the gun report you can gradually bring the timing of the shot closer in the arc,until it's all the way back to before you toss the dummy

this will take a couple weeks of daily work if your cautious, which with a dog that shows noise sensitivity like yours you should be.

long guns have lower muzzle blasts and you can direct them away from the pup easier than a pistol
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A long gun does not have a lower muzzle blasts than a training pistol. The training pistol shoots the tiny acorn crimps. Much different from a 22 blank pistol.
 
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i'm sure you are correct i've never used one because i already had .22 revolvers

I just buy low report blanks
 
Hiya. :)

Is puppy. Whole "world-thang" is new. You have many, many months of training, learning, playing, becoming a pack and hunting team.

Just some stuff...worked for me, but could be absolutely against current teaching and protocols.

Make noise. Drop pans, silverware, boots at home, and then pick 'em and go about your business. Don't make a fuss. Laugh at yourself out loud, and let the pup see you're happy (if clumsy). Play a lot of hands-on with the pup, praise darned near everything. Don't worry about guns, just let the puppy hear noises and see that you a one noisy critter to be around. If you can, shoot a .22 or cap gun outside from time-to-time when the pup is inside.

Let her learn you are there, where ever the heck she wanders to (in a controlled environment...) dog park, field, baseball diamond.

Reward her often...few treats, lots of praise, body rubbing and pats. Talk to her about the weather, your car, your shotguns, and the stain you got on your good tie. let her hear your voice.

Rarely...maybe once a week...let her play with a pheasant wing. Don't let her destroy it, but make it a special few minutes, then put it away. She's gonna want to chew for a long time, designate specific toys/socks/whatever and only allow her to continue chewing them.

Make it hard for her to disobey. My family used guilt for me, but it doesn't work for dogs, so gentle persistent insistence is more effective. I'm reluctant to punish physically. Loud "NO!" and interrupting the behavior has worked for me.

But she's a puppy and wants to learn and love you. Do what you can to allow that to happen.

Best wishes.:thumbsup:
 
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Thanks for the replies everyone! I will try my best to respond to each. Sorry for the length. Ill try to explain better but of course there is more to this than I can write...

Westksbow: Well, I will start out by saying, thanks for the advice. Your points make sense to me. I am following a program. I am following the retriever training methods of Tom Dokkens. I have his book/dvd's that have been read and watched multiple times. Quickly Ill note, I have seen a TON of variance in the age recommendations to start introducing and/or formal training with the gun(e collar too) so I chose to stick with what material I have and read Remi's body language the best that I can. By no means am I saying I am right or wrong or don't agree with your methods. We do need more live birds, no doubt! That's a simple answer I wasn't expecting although...duh me!

We may be taking some learning bumps and bruises along the way of course as this is new to both of us. However, we are both learning, enjoying it and definitely advancing. There is no doubt to that.

I should clarify that we have indeed started an introduction to gunfire. Her body language for a while was telling me to wait before really moving forward. My gut feeling, reiterated by some material I have led me on the path not to rush, wait and do it right...with birds. We have a 2 year old at home and we are actively doing stuff around the house a lot that generates loud noises. Lots of noises. More than 1/2 the time it is loud at home and she is used to all of this by now. Also, when Remi was introduced to live birds originally, we did a lot of clapping exactly how and when it was recommended. I know that a clap is not close to being comparable with a gun...but she didn't/doesnt flinch. She is ready for more, right now. Ill get her more birds westks! Each day she is getting better in both respects...confidence and loud noises. This coming weekend we will be at it again. I have a cap gun to use for the time being and then will transition up to a 209 primer pistol(some are saying it may not be needed if the cap gun is loud/efficient? I think Id still like to transition to that next w/o skipping it), 410 and so on as the situations/Remi dictates.

I am trying my best to let Remi dictate what she is ready for next. Im trying to find the balance of what she needs but what she is ready for. Every time I get back into the training book, it reiterates not to rush, nothing will be perfect and some things will be ahead or behind schedule. Don't be afraid to go back a step or two. Use any timeline as a guideline not a rule.

I appreciate the advice and constructive criticism!

Bobman: Remi is now 4 months old(this past wed) and is allowed to go to the town dog park now...which is a nice one too. Youre absolutely right and this has been huge for her!! Although we took her everywhere, introduced her to anyone and everyone possible(still do)...she still needed/needs a lot more of this. Since getting her to this park, she has been more receptive, less stubborn and is doing better at home with our little one too!

Kismet: We do exactly what you recommend...we drop pots n pans and do what we can to make noise while just going about our way, showing her this is all normal. No coddling. She doesnt react negatively to this. She is on treats still with training but not all of the time. So she is working with praise and treats currently. I know that the program Im on starts to fade away from treats roughly at 6 months I believe. We also play huntem up with the wing. We did this a lot not too long ago(around 2 months of age roughly) but lately we havnt been doing it as much...more of a treat for her and to remind me, darn her nose is good! Sometimes Ill hide one on a walk. She would love to tear it up if I let her though! She is teething right now too so retrieves have been put on hold for the most part and have been trying our best to substitute what we want her to chew on when not training and if shes chewing on something we don't want her to. Funny you should mention your last sentence. I felt she needed more play time more of just being a puppy and enjoying herself/me. I made some tweaks to our schedule at the beginning of last week and she has responded better than I could ever imagine. Almost like shes saying" thanks for the extended/more play time!"

Going along with letting her know Im there, Remi is also trained to come/recall on a whistle blast. She is great with this and she comes running to me every time 100mph! So while she is running, playing and soaking it all up, I will remind her at times. She will look for where the whistle is coming from(if further than weve trained or many distractions around), stop what she is doing and willingly come to me, wherever I may be...that is really cool stuff!

Thanks everyone for your comments. I hope I have not come off the wrong way to ya's. Definitely NOT my intent. I feel that even though sometimes I start to have concerns(which leads me to threads like these) Remi is on track to doing very well. She IS doing very well! Still a PUP and the TRAINER is getting trained!
 
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Can someone describe the difference between a training pistol and starter pistol? I believe I have only seen starter pistols and when the time comes it looks like Ill be getting a traditions 209 primer pistol...around $80 or so if I remember correctly.

Thanks in advance...
 
outdoorslife89 said:
Can someone describe the difference between a training pistol and starter pistol? I believe I have only seen starter pistols and when the time comes it looks like Ill be getting a traditions 209 primer pistol...around $80 or so if I remember correctly.

Thanks in advance...
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I'm not sure if their is a difference other than nomenclature. What ever you do get a .209 as they are much cheaper to shoot. I go through about 1500 primers a year for about $45.
 
Gatzby said:
I'm not sure if their is a difference other than nomenclature. What ever you do get a .209 as they are much cheaper to shoot. I go through about 1500 primers a year for about $45.
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Ok, thanks Gatzby. Appreciate you explaining. I was leaning towards the 209 but only just because that's what I can get locally here.
 
One thing I additionally did with all my pups was take them to a skeet/trap range whenever I could on a Saturday or Sunday. Started them on this at a very young age.

In the early ages, I'm talking 10 weeks, I'd just park 100 yards or more from the line and just sit in the truck with the pup, talking and petting. It's just faint distant pops at that range. As the pup grew, we'd take the next step and get out of the truck and play. Any kind of play. A ball, a walk, whatever; still 100 yards away. Probably spending 10-15 minutes and then leaving.

Then when they didn't even look towards the line anymore I'd move it in 15 yards or so. Time went by, we played a little fetch with a dummy. More time, move a bit closer. You get the idea.

By the time the dog was 5-6 months old we'd be playing fetch right behind the 27 yard line on a trap field, maybe 30-35 yards from the guns. By this age, they'd be getting all excited just driving into the range. They could hear the pops and they knew some play was just ahead.

YMMV. Worked for me for the last ~40 years. Never had a gun shy dog out of 10 pups.
 
Chestle said:
One thing I additionally did with all my pups was take them to a skeet/trap range whenever I could on a Saturday or Sunday. Started them on this at a very young age.

In the early ages, I'm talking 10 weeks, I'd just park 100 yards or more from the line and just sit in the truck with the pup, talking and petting. It's just faint distant pops at that range. As the pup grew, we'd take the next step and get out of the truck and play. Any kind of play. A ball, a walk, whatever; still 100 yards away. Probably spending 10-15 minutes and then leaving.

Then when they didn't even look towards the line anymore I'd move it in 15 yards or so. Time went by, we played a little fetch with a dummy. More time, move a bit closer. You get the idea.

By the time the dog was 5-6 months old we'd be playing fetch right behind the 27 yard line on a trap field, maybe 30-35 yards from the guns. By this age, they'd be getting all excited just driving into the range. They could hear the pops and they knew some play was just ahead.

YMMV. Worked for me for the last ~40 years. Never had a gun shy dog out of 10 pups.
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Thanks for your comment Chestle. This is very interesting and its worked for you time and time again. Ive seen it mentioned, I believe its in the book Ive read, where it says not to do this. I would imagine its "generally" a no-no because people do this(same with at the food bowl) carelessly with no plan or steps and it leads to problems because they just bull rush the pup into gunfire. This seems well thought out and not careless imo(just like westks' food bowl tactic). You go but keep a good distance so the noises are faint, just like with the starter pistol/bird intro and at a good distance away to start. Hmmmm, this might work. As I stated and noticed her confidence changing recently, I don't think wed have a problem doing this. When I advance her stage of gunfire intro I wanted it to be associated with live birds. Here, the playing with the pup while firing is going on acts as the birds in a sense. I do plan on getting her on more live birds this weekend with an uptick in gunfire...not much, a loud cap gun for the time being. So as long as all goes well, I may do this to help her conditioning. It seems as if it would work hand in hand as we progress.
 
Id like to bring this thread back up since its been a few months. Remi is now 7.5 months.

Remi has been on more birds, both quail and chukar, and has also been around gunfire(training pistol) a lot more now. Once a week sometimes twice, every week with the gun. The supplier told me his chukar need a few more weeks so thats being put on hold until then.

I have been training in a group setting once a week which has helped with this(as they work the older dogs shes hearing it from a distance) and many other things. Our gun intro started with live birds not too long after I originally made this thread(before the group) and from a far distance. Now Remi has progressed up to doing short single marks and as close as 30 yards with the gun. So far so good. No negative reaction. Quite the opposite. Gun goes off, ears go forward and ready to mark in excitement. Its great to see. We will keep working like this and eventually progress up to a 20 gauge then 12.

Her confidence is growing as well. A lot of it is from letting her be a pup and experience new things and places. Seems like a natural progression for her. Im just there to help guide her lol
 
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