Fsentkilr is a real farmer. If you doubt that take a look at Anderson county land maps. See how much land he and his family own. He was always gracious enough to allow me and my friends to hunt their land when I lived back there. The only thing I didn't hunt on their land was quail because he hunts them. Being on social media is a matter of a smart phone now a days. Hell I posted on here twice today while spreading lime and fertilizer. Granted I am not covering his amount of acres but I also work a full time job unlike him who only has to cover how thousand acres each year. Maybe he needs to quit posting and get another 7500 acres to farm. I am for hire. Would love to move back home. Hint hint Fsentkilr.
HB 2207 and 2208
- Thread starter ksgobbler
- Start date
fsentkilr
Active member
I do quit posting and coming on here from time to time. There seems to be a lot of anti landowner post on here now and then. There have been times I get so frustrated I consider not letting anyone I don't know hunt anymore. Those are the times I quit coming on here. I try to keep reminding myself that not all hunters are like that. I will almost always let anyone hunt anything except quail, and I will even let a couple of guys hunt them if they ask later in the year and I think there are enough left on the farm to hunt. As far as help, I have one son that just came back and another that is a Junior in high school who will after college. My brother also has 4 sons, so hopefully our farm will continue on in the future. I would be more than willing to show anyone our farm, I am very proud of the work we have done for the quail and our conservation efforts in general. Here is my facebook link, their are a bunch of pictures of the farm as well as hunting pics of mine.
https://www.facebook.com/michael.spencer.509
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fsentkilr
Active member
I was reading these on my phone and missed this one. My brother and I farm 6500 acres all of it except one farm we own. 3000 acres will be corn this year. I saw Turtles post and had to go back and see what I missed. I have lots of time for social media sitting in line at the eplant or Bunge, or sitting in a tractor with the autoguide engaged. I don't have anything to prove to you, but I posted my FB link which has my real name, and pictures. You are welcome to pull up a plat map of Anderson County Kansas, and pull up Finney County also, there are two half sections there. Reading some of your post reminds me why I quit coming on here. I don't have time to go on social media and make sh!t up that's for sure.
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Chestle
Well-known member
Not a problem for me; I don't trespass.
I have permission on a very large number of acres where I hunt and I combine that with hunting public land.
Attitudes like mine...that the wildlife belongs to the people and is managed by the State and Federal government...established the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.
Attitudes like mine were held and promoted by hunters and anglers in the US since the mid-1800s.
Attitudes like mine were held and promoted by hunters like Theodore Roosevelt and George Bird Grinnell.
Attitudes like yours were and are held by European landowners.
akp
Active member
Maybe I missed it somewhere in here, but what about big groups? Does everyone in the group of say 20 pheasant hunters need a note? I have a friend that hunts in a big group and they hit several places opening weekend. What a total pain in the ass that would be.
From a hunter standpoint, it would prevent me from even messing with asking permission much. Already hard for me to ask but to then ask for a note after being told "yea, you can walk that fencerow" is a little much for me. I'd just stick with public or not even hunt there.
I totally understand that it's very frustrating for the landowner dealing with trespassing issues.
Also seems like another layer to wade through in getting more youth involved. Maybe not. Just my .02
From a hunter standpoint, it would prevent me from even messing with asking permission much. Already hard for me to ask but to then ask for a note after being told "yea, you can walk that fencerow" is a little much for me. I'd just stick with public or not even hunt there.
I totally understand that it's very frustrating for the landowner dealing with trespassing issues.
Also seems like another layer to wade through in getting more youth involved. Maybe not. Just my .02
fsentkilr
Active member
BrownDogsCan2
Well-known member
In 16 kansas passed a law that made it unlawful to guide on wiha land, my guess is that selling a tag to hunt wiha would fall into a pretty grey area.
If you see any anti landowner sentiment I think it's directed moreso at the landowners that do not seem to be stewards of wildlife, tearing out every hedgerow, fence line, and spraying every chemical to mankind, grazing the grass down to the dirt etc....We've had some pleasant conversations via pm etc, but have not had the chance to meet personally but I'm guessing this type of thing as a sportsman may frustrate you too.
Thats where my frustration comes in, but since I'm not the deed holder to the property I have no say which is the way it is.
That being said I can see your side of the argument but I also see the other. What I see happening is if they open this door, and crack it just a little bit it will be sprung wide open. Maybe we as hunters are clinging on for dear life - but the activities hunters enjoy may be going the way of the buffalo and plains Indians. Only time will tell. However I'd like to think if we keep it from being all about the money which unfortunately deer hunting has become and some other forms of hunting we are ruining our future. (Quick Sidebar -- I met a nice older farmer near retirement last year west of Salina - I called him about hunting birds this year in january - he remembered me and said fine - but since we only met last year and he didnt know me well enough he made the comment to the effect of if I say yes this isn't a situation where you say you and one other guy will be there then you tell all your buddies and all of a sudden 10 guys are there - I kind of chuckled and told him if I tried I could not get 10 guys to go bird hunting as most folks my age do not like to hunt nor do they hunt, at least in my circle...to me it's really a sad state of what hunting has become)
I take a hard line and if you go on Bowsite you can read a couple discussions about it I started -- KS practices ABSOLUTELY ZERO DEER MANAGEMENT -- as residents we should not be allowed to hunt statewide or in any season, nor should we be allowed to buy mule deer tags OTC or have free reign from OK to NE in the Eastern/Western zones to hunt. Non Residents should NOT be virtually guaranteed a tag which they are at this point per my understanding. We need to go back to the management practices the state implored during the 80's/90's -- I posted about the fact I remember my dad liked to rifle deer hunt which helped lead to my passion for the same (though the money is quickly ruining it for me) anyways I remember it was not a guarantee he'd get a tag much less a buck tag and years he'd get doe tags he was plenty happy with that -- at that time we lived in Butler county, however I think he'd try and get a tag out in the Fredonia area where his employer had a ranch they'd let their employees hunt on.
I just do not like the idea of T-tags as others have alluded to it will pull a lot of WIHA ground out and turn is further into texas where all hunting virtually stops until someone shoots their real or imagined booner as per all the hunting shows/magazines hide behind every tree. I just think it will open the doors for expanding it - there will be rampant fraud (IE I am out of state hunter - I buy t-tag from you - per the law I'm supposed to hunt Your land only - but we wink at each other and I just go hunt anywhere I want) -- We dont even have enough wardens to enforce the laws we already have on the books. I just think it will open the doors for rampant misuse. The KDWPT needs to pull in reigns and practice management as other western states do. I've been investigating Idaho for mule deer hunting - look them up and see how many units/season dates they have. To top it off in KS we are already allowing people to chase deer for nearly 4 mos. ABSURD!!!!!!
I've grown to hate White tails and what they now represent with commercialization.
Mike - I do have a question - this is really on a serious note - the neighbors you know that are having depredation/crop damage issues - if myself or someone else stopped in wanting to shoot some does and of course were presentable - how likely would they be to let us shoot some? I ask this as I've encountered a few guys that have that complaint but if you ask they wont let you hunt the deer....it's a real head slapper - I'm not saying you are in that boat as you seem to be the exception to the rule. BTW I do love eating deer meat and didnt even hunt this year as I didnt want the hassle of dealing with the competition that comes for white tail spots. I'm looking forward to mule deer hunting out by Colorado next year though -- if the stars align I'll be taking a 9 day trip which I've had to bypass for the past 3 years.
It's been nice on this thread to see both sides of the coin...Mike I hope you keep contributing - and not take the stuff about landowners as directed at you - I think when people make comments it's more out of frustration and some of the things I've pointed about above which likely would agitate you as well from a hunter/sportsman perspective.
With the written permission bill - I haven't read the entire bill but if it would say you need it for every piece of property you go on I do not like the law - sometimes I cant find the owner at home and he remembers me so it's easy for a quick phone call etc and I can tell they do not want to be bothered with writing permission. Ive got good relationships with these guys but it's just not their style and they dont want to be bothered with it. What would have me the most curious is why this bill has been introduced or what prompted it.
:cheers:
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fsentkilr
Active member
I can't speak for my neighbors, I would let people shoot does in antlerless season for sure. My wife and and friends also hunt them so it would have to be organized. If my permanent blinds were empty a person could even use them. I think most neighbors would let guys shoot does if properly approached and asked. Bucks are a little different story as people have relation or friends here hunting them. I have friends, two sons and a nephew that all hunt bucks. We shoot quite a few does, but it seems we can't kill enough. I have been working a strip along corn stubble joining filter strips so I can burn later in the year without burning the stubble and have seen around 20 bedded in the grass the last two days.
I would say what has prompted the written permission bill is trespassing problems. It's as hard for a game warden to contact landowners as it is hunters. If someone says they have permission it's pretty hard to prove they don't without contacting the landowner or tenant. A written permission law would stop that. People would also be generally less likely to trespass if they knew law enforcement could write them up on the spot unless they can produce written permission.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over it one way or another if they pass or not. I support any legislation that strengthens private property rights. I also think that farmers should have a way to recoup some of the money they lose to crop damage. I am not going to sell my tag anyway, but it would be a way for landowners to generate some revenue without leasing their ground out for the entire hunting season.
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Chestle
Well-known member
I don't believe that I have posted anything in this thread that would or should lead anyone to think that I am "anti-landowner".
I believe in private property rights; landowners should and do control access to the lands they own. I have absolutely no problem with that concept.
What I have posted here is that wildlife in the United States belongs to all the people, not the landowner.
To support that fact, I have pointed out the case law that makes it so.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should Google;
United States Supreme Court
MARTIN v. WADDELL'S LESSEE, (1842)
Argued: Decided: January 1, 1842
and also The North American Wildlife Conservation Model.
To those who are angry with my statement, I suggest it might be better to direct your anger at Roger B. Taney, fifth chief justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.
I believe in private property rights; landowners should and do control access to the lands they own. I have absolutely no problem with that concept.
What I have posted here is that wildlife in the United States belongs to all the people, not the landowner.
To support that fact, I have pointed out the case law that makes it so.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should Google;
United States Supreme Court
MARTIN v. WADDELL'S LESSEE, (1842)
Argued: Decided: January 1, 1842
and also The North American Wildlife Conservation Model.
To those who are angry with my statement, I suggest it might be better to direct your anger at Roger B. Taney, fifth chief justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.
SWKSHuntAll
New member
If farmers are allowed to sale their Deer tags to out of state hunters only, it will destroy local hunting far greater then it is already. Farmers will get rid of WIHA and start leasing to outfits even more then they are now. We find it very hard to find land to hunt on as it is. Last year was the first year I didn't shoot a deer in 10 years. The places I hunt were overly crowded with out of state hunters. I seen trucks from all over the country. They were hunting all the leased land and WIHA in hopes for a huge Kansas buck. The Dept of Wildlife has become a for profit industry. It takes many more game wardens to cover all the out of state activity, all the while the prices for my licenses and tags go up and up. Most farmers I know will be more and happy to make huge profits selling a tag to a guy from New York city under guided hunter outfits. I don't think we have the same traditions as we had before. Its all about the money now and it is killing local hunters, our traditions, and our way of life.
This is truly entertaining stuff! In an effort to clarify my perspective: I don't farm but I did grow up on one and my father is still at it in Ellis and Trego counties. I bird hunt throughout Kansas but got tired of deer hunting years ago. Most farmers are gracious about granting permission and there is a reason when they don't. This will definitely make trespassing easier to enforce. Clarification is needed on what is written permission...is a text considered written permission?
As far as selling tags, I think there may be some overreacting going on here. It's been a while since I deer hunted but I was under the impression that a farmer / landowner got a (1) hunt on your own land tag. Has that gone up / changed?
I'm all for giving away (family, friends, whoever) or selling their tag if they (landowners) don't want to use it. I could be wrong but I don't see this impacting many deer hunting opportunities and I don't think it will have much impact on WIHA for bird hunting. If it is $ they are after (which is OK in my book) then why couldn't they sell their landowner tags AND take the WIHA contract?
As far as selling tags, I think there may be some overreacting going on here. It's been a while since I deer hunted but I was under the impression that a farmer / landowner got a (1) hunt on your own land tag. Has that gone up / changed?
I'm all for giving away (family, friends, whoever) or selling their tag if they (landowners) don't want to use it. I could be wrong but I don't see this impacting many deer hunting opportunities and I don't think it will have much impact on WIHA for bird hunting. If it is $ they are after (which is OK in my book) then why couldn't they sell their landowner tags AND take the WIHA contract?
I had this same discussion on Bowsite a month ago - permission by text message is valid per the KDWPT -- (I asked the question on their FB page - they responded - you can probably find where I asked it if you go check them out)
There is no overeacting going on here - when we initially had T-tags it was a free for all like it is now with the tags. There were plenty of loop holes where landowners and leasees could get a tag per 80 acres if I recall. So do the math on a rancher that lives in Western KS and may have a deer density of 1 or less per sq mile and he owns 5k acres - does that make sense he could get that many T-tags per 80 acres? I am probably wrong on how they figured it up - but it was fairly ridiculous from what I remember....this was all due to our former governors greedy ass family in SC/SW KS running their deer outfitting business. I wouldnt pee on former gov mike hayden if he was on fire.
Secondly - if the special interests get this law changed the state KDWP is shooting themselves in the foot as they are pissing a lot of revenue out of the window - they've already had to cut back enough.
If they did a system similar to Colorado or NM where the biologists are allowed to apply science and control how many tags are issued and actually look at populations rather than tag demand to determine how many tags are issued then I'd be all for it. However that has not been the case since Deer hunting has been screwed up since the middle 90's when all this started taking place. IE in CO or NM per my understanding they look at deer density and how the population is doing and will only allot so many LO or T-Tags per geographic area to be distrubuted amongst the Landowners which they can do with as they wish, however they need to apply for them and it's not a guaranteed over the counter free for all...which is what we have now and will only get worse if this door is opened again. We need to fix our present problems before creating another one.
Lastly - we do not have enough wardens as it is to enforce the rules, do you actually think folks will hunt the land they bought the tag for? I've watched land owners who I know for a fact had a land owner tag hunting on WIHA's and shot one on the WIHA then drove their truck onto the WIHA to pick up the deer. Per my understanding as it is now their LO tag was only good for their land and they were skirting the laws - what's to stop folks from buying the tag from Mr LO, winking at each other then the t-tag owner goes and hunts where ever he wants. We have hardly anyone out there to enforce the laws as it is, why make it easier for people to cheat, and why take revenue away from an already cash strapped department.
I have virtually stopped white tail hunting due to the issues it's created and am to a point where I'll be close to stopping mulie hunting and will only hunt out of state where it's managed. If I cant do it every year as a result well that's fine, but we have Absolutely NO deer management going on, science and biology have been shoved aside for greed and supply/demand. You cannot run a big game department on supply and demand, gradually the quality of your supply goes down the toilet after you've overharvested and mismanaged the supply.
Some may wonder why I'm so zealous about the deer issues - and it's simply because the deer issues trickle down to affect us bird hunters and our hunting opportunities. More and more land will come out of WIHA and be inaccessible if we open up deer more than it already is. Christ, we already have the seasons open for nearly 4 mos. You make it worse the only time anyone will stand a chance at getting permission on private land is the middle of January after Doe Season is over and deer is finally closed.
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Here two cents from someone withot a damn bit of knowledge.
Im active duty Air Force from Liberal and when I retire from the Air Force I hope to come home and be a biologist for either the state or pheasants forever in the state.
This thread magnifies the issues that are leading to the death of hunting in America. Its not the land owners leasing out property, non residents, or the common local man just trying to find a piece of land to hunt on. I believe the issues that are all being argued about will all come full circle or could be avoided.
To get to my point I believe hunting is dying in America because the liberal movement is united in one belief ''hatred of hunters". While we are all two busy with pissing matches amongst ourselves. Be it Land owners vs common men, residents vs nonresidents, bow hunters vs rifle hunters, hell bow hunters vs xbow hunters they are united and moving there overall agendas down our throats. Point is if we don't start uniting and finding common grounds its all going to hell.
Consider your great grandchildren with all your hunting views and when you disagree get off the keyboards and go have a beer together.
Carry on gentlemen
Im active duty Air Force from Liberal and when I retire from the Air Force I hope to come home and be a biologist for either the state or pheasants forever in the state.
This thread magnifies the issues that are leading to the death of hunting in America. Its not the land owners leasing out property, non residents, or the common local man just trying to find a piece of land to hunt on. I believe the issues that are all being argued about will all come full circle or could be avoided.
To get to my point I believe hunting is dying in America because the liberal movement is united in one belief ''hatred of hunters". While we are all two busy with pissing matches amongst ourselves. Be it Land owners vs common men, residents vs nonresidents, bow hunters vs rifle hunters, hell bow hunters vs xbow hunters they are united and moving there overall agendas down our throats. Point is if we don't start uniting and finding common grounds its all going to hell.
Consider your great grandchildren with all your hunting views and when you disagree get off the keyboards and go have a beer together.
Carry on gentlemen
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fsentkilr
Active member
I don't remember any loopholes where the landowner could get a tag for every 80 acres. They could get one for their wife and for them if they owned 160 acres and both names were on the deeds. The ttags and hunt on own land tags were and will be issued one for 80 acres per owner or tenant. That limits in to one tag if you own 80 acres or more, or someone operating 80 acres as a tenant. You guys are making this a bigger deal than it needs to be. If I were to sell my tag, I would probably save a quarter or so for the guy who buys it to hunt on. That would still leave the rest of my farm for other people to hunt on. They also could hunt that quarter during other seasons other than deer season. After the person who bought the tag shot their deer people could even hunt that quarter. Would it be better if I just leased my ground to a hunting club for the whole season, which would tie up all the hunting rights? I am not selling my tag anyway, it's just an example.
You are definitely not who I'm alluding to. I can't remember the exact specifics from when we last had T-tags but if memory serves correct the amount you could get was tied to the land - the min amount was 80 acres and depending on how much land you (or if you had it leased) was tied to the amount of t-tags you could get. I could be wrong but I think the that was the principle...I do remember a loophole where if guys had land leased (oufitters) they could get t-tags as well....again I could be wrong as i'm going by memory and a lot has happened since the late 90's early 00's.
I'm not saying I dont agree with how they have it proposed, I just know that when given an inch a mile will be taken. It will start with only allotting one T-tag then it will balloon to as many as someone wants. Frankly I do not trust the Deer Commission or state legislature to use their brains. The big mistake was removing the sole control over how tags are issued and how many are issued from the state biologists and state game dept in the first place. That opened pandoras box - which the KBA if I recall was able to get partially closed by getting rid of T-tags. However the compromise was virtually unlimited OTC non resident tags which were supposed to have limits on them....however in somebodys infinite wisdom they decided to tie the amount of non resident tags to demand instead of using science to determine how many should actually be issued to maintain what we have.
I remember handling insurance claims for a guy that lived near Lakin and had a fancy hunting lodge - he had photos of General Norman Schwarzkopf and a few other famous important people -- at the time T-tags were legal and he had no issue getting top dollar for them - I'm thinking it was around $4500 or so in 2004...(I enjoyed talking to him and we went on a ride around his ranch while I was out inspecting one of his wrecked cars.) We got rid of them and their cancer and I just dont want to go back.
We need to go back to limited draws where no one is guaranteed a tag including residents. We do that it will solve many problems. Most importantly the management of the deer herd should be back where it belongs which is with the dept of the widlife and parks and their staff biologists, not the deer commission and the state legislature. Big game hunting is not something that can be managed using the principles of supply/demand. We did that with the Buffalo and at one point waterfowl and we see where that got us.
fsentkilr
Active member
The ttags were hunt on your own land tags that you could transfer. You are only allowed one regardless of how much land you have. I remember what you are alluring to happening, a neighbor was doing it. He was getting his two sons tags and selling them. He also got ticketed for it. His sons were in college and didn't own or help him operate the ground. If people were getting more than one ttag they were breaking the law. I suppose they could have been getting tags for people that didn't hunt and selling them, but they would have to hunt on that persons land. Believe me, if you could have gotten more than one tag I would have known. I lived to bowhunt big whitetail bucks at the time. I would have bought more than one tag if I could. It has never been legal to buy more than one buck tag per individual in Kansas.
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
I believe you are correct because I can remember the neighbor getting about a dozen of those T-Tags per year. There may have been a cap on them, not sure. Some of them were selling for $3000 back then. Can't imagine what they would go for now.
CharBroiled
Active member
For the record on HB2207:
According to a report, they amended the bill, removing the part about having to obtain written permission to hunt any private land at the request of sportsmen and landowners.
A hunter must have written permission to pursue wounded game onto land posted with written permission only signs.
HB2208 has stalled.
According to a report, they amended the bill, removing the part about having to obtain written permission to hunt any private land at the request of sportsmen and landowners.
A hunter must have written permission to pursue wounded game onto land posted with written permission only signs.
HB2208 has stalled.