Flushers: Steady or Not?

FCS, raises the point of Honoring. Tony has honored since he about 4 months old. It just something he has always done. His sister she won't honor at all. Same litter of pups, but one does and one don't. Tony when honoring a point and when the bird flushes. Then all bets are off for Tony is out there fast trying to get the retrieve.---Bob
 
Another great thread! Thanks to all for the input. My lab Ruby (hunter and housepet - I'll never run her in a trial or breed her). There is still a difference between what I WANT her to be and where she IS now, but that's what keeps up busy! LOL!
In her first season, she was just a birdy dog out sniffing around, putting up some birds here and there and more often than not screwing everything up. That was my own failing for lack of training, but we worked hard in the off-season as she matured and by season two she was working within range much better, quartering fields, casting into cover with hand and whistle signals. Much better, but she had the great failing that she would chase a flushed bird for as long as she could see it. Big problem, and very embarassing. We worked hard on that and by her third season I could turn her off a bird in the air with the whistle or "NO BIRD" 100% of the time. We are currently experiencing one significant problem, and that is runners. Unlike a bird in the air, I just can NOT turn her from the hot scent of a running bird. She WANTS to put it in the air so badly that she will not slow down for me. My goal is that she will respond to a whistle-sit (a command that she knows well and obeys under all other situations) even when on the hot scent of a runner that has not flushed. At the moment she is just too damned fast when a bird starts to run, leading to dangerous behaviour like gunners jogging to keep up for the flush, let alone chasing a runner across a road etc... I dont' use an e-collar, so correcting this behaviour is challenging to say the least! I have enlisted the help of a pro dog trainer for this, mostly because he's got a pile of game birds that can be put out in his fields to work on this. Conditions are no good just now - we're up to our knees in crusty snow, but I look forward to working on this with him when conditions improve. For now, I just keep working on whilstle sits at various distances with various stimuli (for example, the .22 cal bumper launcher excites her to NO END, so I steady her, fire that, then stop her on the whiste when I've released her). So my ideal situation would be that she is steady to the whislte under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, and if we can get there, that's probably steady enough for me (I don't feel strongly that she should be steady on the flush/shot for my purposes, altough I had not previoiusly considered the safety part of the equation - might have to think on that a bit). As far as lost birds go, I have noticed that if she's sitting steady when a duck is shot that she marks the bird better than if she's out on a retrieve or outside of the blind for some reason when a bird goes down. She just seems to concentrate better and takes a better line too the bird than when the shot happens more "randomly" in a less controlled setting. So what I'm saying there is that I don't think that being steady to the flush would cost me many birds - in fact, she may do better overall.
-Crockett
 
JMBZ71 said:
FC, I'm gonna try to make it to an ESS Field Trial this spring. Sounds like it would be fun to watch both the dogs and handlers work.
Btw... What is the typical entrance fee for a field trial? Thanks for your input!
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Just the entry, useualy 90-110$.
Another interesting comment about the heavy cover ect. Well OK now the cover is 6-8' tall,There will also be situations where an unsteady dog will not see where the bird fell either but he is on the run some where, Then a second bird gets up and maybe you now have two birds that the dog has no clue where they are, are you walking over there to find unfamilar teritory you can't suddenly tell where exactly you thought it went down. By now the second bird could be gone.With a steady dog he flushes the same bird,tall cover release the dog on the flush, he is now on the run same as an unsteady dog. Still does not see the fall, second bird gets up, you hit the hup whistle he hups because he is ready for direction anyway (blind). He is now out of the area where he cant see and you shoot the 2nd bird. Send him on that for a quick retrieve. Give em a line and handle him to the first fall. Chances are you can see where the bird fell better staying where you shot from vs walking over to the area. And you are not contaminating the site of the fall by walking around and the dog has an eaiser time finding that first bird. The dog that handles blinds well is a great tool too. even an unsteady dog. if he did not see the fall coming out of heavy cover like we all may have seen, and is running in the wrong direction you can stop them right off the bat and head them in the right direction.
 
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Crockett, You are on the right track in getting to dog to stop on command of the whistle. That I would assume is the same as me teaching Tony "WHOA". Believe me that command serves very well in a lot of instances. As for taking your dog off after runners. I let Tony go after them, but if he gets to far ahead or in a dangerous place. I blow "whoa" and he stops and when I get close. I gave a voice command. "Find The Bird" I know not by the book. But it works, it is his command to release and go hunting. Even when we first enter the field. I use that "find the bird" command to tell him it is ok to go hunting.---Bob
 
JMBZ71 said:
FC, I'm gonna try to make it to an ESS Field Trial this spring. Sounds like it would be fun to watch both the dogs and handlers work.
Btw... What is the typical entrance fee for a field trial? Thanks for your input!
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Also if you do go, offer to be taught to carry the shag basket(dead birds), you can walk right behind the judge and handler and will be able to see way better. It takes about 5 seconds to learn the trade. And you can dump long before they get to heavy.It's like a wicker bucket on sholder straps. with a burlap sack for live traps.

Edit PS here, Don't pay for an entry untill you go and see what the dog has to do or see it in training somewhere, they have to do things none of us useualy prepair for in hunting dogs, Brace work ect.Poaching, (chaseing over the flagline for the other dog and handlers bird) that part we talked about of the dog stoping on a runner And forgetting about it. Lots of things.It will most likely be a waste of $ if a guy just goes with no knolage. At least seeing it first you can decide if it's worth the effort to train an older dog or not for a try at it.Most likely an older dog will not be able to learn all the new things you need them to. It is best to start off with a youngster.
 
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Although I now have a Vizsla, I had Springers for about 35 years. My dogs were always released and following up the birds as they flushed. I didn't have too many shots I had to pull up on due to my dogs being in danger, but there were definately some lost birds due to that. I guess it just is what you prefer. Although he was not trained to do this, I did have one Springer that would look directly at me until I fired the shot. It was more a look of when the h... are you going to fire that shotgun look, rather than a dog trained to be steady to wing and shot! He was a great dog though. :)

Paul
 
Thanks Bob,
That's exactly what I want RUby to do (go after runners unless I blow a whislte sit to let me catch up, then I release her wiht another "hunt 'em up"). I'm hopeful that some work on planted birds with a longline this summer/spring will get this sorted for this fall.
-Croc
 
bobeyerite said:
Crockett, You are on the right track in getting to dog to stop on command of the whistle. That I would assume is the same as me teaching Tony "WHOA". Believe me that command serves very well in a lot of instances. As for taking your dog off after runners. I let Tony go after them, but if he gets to far ahead or in a dangerous place. I blow "whoa" and he stops and when I get close. I gave a voice command. "Find The Bird" I know not by the book. But it works, it is his command to release and go hunting. Even when we first enter the field. I use that "find the bird" command to tell him it is ok to go hunting.---Bob
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Bob... Runners have been the biggest challenge with our Springers. The problem is that it happens so quickly, particularly when you’re working 2 ft. dogs in heavy 4-5 ft. cover. They can hit a runner and be out of range in seconds flat. But then, no one said those wiley roosters were going to go willingly. It's all part of the fun.

FC, thanks for the tips on the ESS Field Trials. You've sort of piqued my interest and I'm looking forward to attending some trials when I get the opportunity.
 
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I find making Tony "Whoa, for me to catch up takes some pressure off the bird. Tony when he resumes after that bird will usually loop out and smell the bird from the side. Then he goes on point sometimes it is 20 feet or more. Then I have a chance at the bird, but a lot of them hearing me coming. Take off running and flush wild out of gun range. But that is all part of the game. It sure is fun to see Tony work them.---Bob
 
JMBZ71 said:
Bob... Runners have been the biggest challenge with our Springers. The problem is that it happens so quickly, particularly when youâ??re working 2 ft. dogs in heavy 4-5 ft. cover. They can hit a runner and be out of range in seconds flat. But then, no one said those wiley roosters were going to go willingly. It's all part of the fun.

FC, thanks for the tips on the ESS Field Trials. You've sort of piqued my interest and I'm looking forward to attending some trials when I get the opportunity.
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Let me know if I can help in any way and I will, If you need local club info or whatever, the Spring trial season is on now and there is several starting soon all over the US so you might want to go and see one this spring so you have all summer to get ready for a fall one. What part of the US are you in. You can PM me to if you like and I will get you the info right away.
 
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