Dog Training

B

Bird-man

New member
You know when I get bored I like to stir the pot a little. So, I thought I would repost something I posted on another thread. With a few additional thoughts.

I have seen guys blasting on their whistle, screaming at their dogs, fighting to get a pheasant out of the dogs mouth. I watched one guy pick his dog up by the scruff of the neck and the skin over its ass, shake it and throw it to the ground. I've heard guys call their dogs all day long, "Joker come, Joker here, Joker no, Joker this, and Joker that." The only Joker was the guy with the gun! I've heard dogs yelping all day long with a collar set too high. All that makes is a nervous dog.

Dogs are generally trainable. If a guy starts at a young age with his dog, teaching them how to learn, setting up simple problems for them to figure out...sit, stay, come, etc, the dog learns how to learn. And all that BS with anger and yelling and electro shock therapy become unnecessary.

I remember my dog busting a covey of quail when he was about a year and a half old. And where I hunt a covey of quail is getting rare. I was pissed. But, let it go, and we went on. He busted another one. And I let go. Called him in, cussed him out, yelled at him, grabbed his chin, had my face right in his, and he got an ear full. Naturally his tail was between his legs and he was feeling bad.

I went over and sat in the grass to cool off. My wonderful young setter came over, laid down and put his chin on my thigh. I could have cried. He wants to please me so much and knew I was unhappy. And it wasn't his fault. Quail make any dog nervous. There are a lot of birds there, maybe 15-20, and some are walking around, and the scent is incredible. and he was so excited he moved, and they flew. And I blew up.

I gotta tell ya, I felt like sh1t that whole day. He was a young dog just learning. And so was I.

I am so gentle with this dog now. And he is so good. He knows what I want and he does it.

So, how did I get him to hold point on quail? Pigeons!!

I took three, tied their legs to a post, and then walked him into the scent on a 30 foot lead. And there they were, three birds walking around, and his nose full of scent. But I had him under control. So, I held him there for 3-4 minutes, letting him watch those birds walk around, drinking in all that good scent. Then I tied him to my portable post, walked in and picked the birds up and put them in my bird bag.

Did that like three times and he is so rock solid now, because he knows moving birds don't equal moving dog, unless they walk away completely like a running rooster, and then he can relocate.

I'll tell you, watching my dog learn has been 99% of the fun of training him. We all know there's nothing better than a good dog in the field. And like a lot of folks have said, there are few bad dogs, but a lot of bad owners!

That doesn't mean there aren't times I have to turn the dial up and give him a good dam reminder of who's in charge here. They're like kids and need reminding. But for the most part, having put in lots and lots of time with lots and lots of pigeons, I have this guy where it is just a pleasure to go out and hunt with him.

Everyone has a favorite, but the Silent Command System by Rick and Ronnie Smith is about as good as it gets. Easy on the dog, and easy on the owner.



Good hunting.
 
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My dog is 5 now and starting his 5th hunting season. He has finally settled down nicely and no longer wears his ecollar so I have to come up with new ways to reign him in. I know it won't work for every dog but calling him to heal and doing a sit stay for a minute or so while the rest of the dogs and hunters move on really gets his attention when he starts pushing. Besides that a simple mouth whistle an hand signals are all I use to direct him.
 
Bird man that is a great post. I think younger hunters with less experience need the training and not so much the dogs. That story of Joker could have me 20 yrs ago. I wanted so bad for my dog at the time to perform that I confused the hell out of her, got my blood boiling and did no favors to anyone associated with me in the field.

I learned, the dog learned and now I take the attitude that when the dog does something right he knows it. When he does something wrong he knows it too because I don't praise him and he figures it out pretty fast. My current bird dog doesn't take correction well at all. He doesn't take loud voices well at all either. I never yell at him because he is so sensitive. My first bird dog could take it, my 2nd not so much and this one not at all.

I went out last season in a large group and one of the guys had one of those booming loud voices. He wasn't trying to be loud he just naturally was 3x louder than anyone else. He yelled at his dog all day and my poor guy was looking for a place to hide any chance he could find it.

It actually worked out pretty well because his hiding place was the bottom of the ditches we hunt in Indiana and it's always hard to get a dog to hunt the bottoms. That's tough hunting but my little dog worked that all day to stay away from that mean yeller!

We also hunt quail here and I learned that if I just allow my dogs to figure out how to get on them and hold point they will - eventually. What I do is I will never shoot at a covey the dog has broken point on. They learn that there is no bird reward if they bust them up. We'll go after singles and if they point I will shoot but if not no bird for them.

One other thing that I had to learn was that dogs, like people, have good performances and bad performances. When I had my Vizsla his nose was always the equal of my buddies GSP, sometimes slightly better but always close.

On one outing my dog was just locked on, pointing everything, finding everything and his dog couldn't find his food bowl if loaded with jerky. The GSP as running past birds that my dog would point 2 sec later. This happened numerous times. He was pissed and was getting mad at his little guy. But we learned the lesson.

You hunt with the dog you have that day and it beats the hell out of not hunting that day. I found that attitude makes every outing special, the dog enjoys it more, learns and you both get better.
 
I think when we lose our temper we make the learning curve longer, not shorter. I told myself I'd be calm and not lose my temper with this pup. Well, Sunday morning, the third day of hunting hard, I lost my temper and got mad. He slams into point next to a deadfall. Out from under the branches runs a grouse, not 5' in front of him. He was 6" behind its' tail as it took off, almost caught it. Man! He was so wound up after that! Out of control, hunting way out in front and not checking back. I finally caught him and was really steamed. Had forgotten the training collar at home. Hadn't needed it all weekend, but a nick at that time would have brought him back in check. Still am disappointed in myself for that [losing my temper, that is. Can't help the faulty memory much].

Thing is with most of us, I'm not a professional dog trainer. I train one dog at a time, we spend his/her lives together and then I get another one when he passes away. I'm 55 and on my fifth dog. Training five dogs over a lifetime doesn't make a pro and we make a lot of mistakes. It's a wonder the dogs turn out as well as they do. I'm thinking the current pup is going to be a fine bird dog, despite me!!!

I'm like Murph, I do not shoot birds he's bumped. They learn to hold when you only shoot the ones they are staunch on and allow you to flush. 30 quail last late summer, then a fall of hunting and by the time we went to Iowa in late October he was mopping them up. This fall again some sloppiness, but he's getting better. I really enjoy working with the dog and really enjoy the hunt with him. Can't wait for Saturday morning!
 
The dog performs with what you make of it, plain and simple. I hate to use the old cliche of "You only get out of it what you put into it" but it's a fact.

Lack of proper training whether that be bird manners or obedience, lies totally with the handler/owner. Can't fault the dog for lack of training. IF you don't have the time to train them, then have a pro train them and then have the pro train you how to properly handle the dog if your a novice.

With regards to a young dog. There is a learning curve in a dogs first year or two and if you put killing a bird a priority over that, then you have a dog for all the wrong reasons.

I won't hunt twice with someone who is constantly yelling or hacking on their dog, it just spoils the hunt for me completely.

Just my 2 cents...
 
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bumped birds

in my life time of hunting with bird dogs, i find that it makes no difference what so ever if i shoot at birds that were not properly pointed. give the dog some credit, they know the difference, one thing, you as the hunter don't really know if the dog made a mistake or not so give him credit and shoot the bird. it is very rare that you get to see what the dog knows so you mostly don't know if the dog made a mistake, if you could be in a position to see the dog actually chase the bird, a correction may be needed, but you won't so don't worry about it. enjoy the hunt and the dog.

cheers
 
mustistuff said:
in my life time of hunting with bird dogs, i find that it makes no difference what so ever if i shoot at birds that were not properly pointed. give the dog some credit, they know the difference, one thing, you as the hunter don't really know if the dog made a mistake or not so give him credit and shoot the bird. it is very rare that you get to see what the dog knows so you mostly don't know if the dog made a mistake, if you could be in a position to see the dog actually chase the bird, a correction may be needed, but you won't so don't worry about it. enjoy the hunt and the dog.

cheers
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I have to agree. I've got an ESS, so it's not an issue for me (ranging out too far perhaps is our issue). But last week we were on some quail, and before we even got there - dog or human - those birds scattered. I can't imagine a strongest point would have kept those birds from taking off. Not trying to stir the pot, I'm just not sure how some of you guys don't shoot in order to teach the dog. I'm sure there are some other analogies in the flushing dog world, but phew, I love to see a good point, but that sounds stressful to me.

In general though, YES, training time is critical, as is patience. for both hunter and dog. I'm 4 years in with my first bird dog. I've had just as much to learn about training as she did. Probably more. I've spent tons of time just learning her tells. When she's got a little scent vs when she's really on to something, etc. I love those days when I'm thinking, "no, the birds are over here" and she's like, "dude, the nose knows... they're over HERE" and you know what... she's right way more than I am. Hunting sure is fun, but hunting with a bird dog is priceless.
 
Dogs are smart. Mine know that if a bird flushes before they point I ain't shooting. They know that wily cackle-birds will run and flush all over but the ones they are looking for and the ones they might get are the ones they can pin into a hold and they point them.

That may or may not be the best way to train them but I think we have an understanding. And how many wild flushing quail or pheasants do you really get good shots at anyways?

That's one other reason I do it - fewer cripples and fewer lost wounded birds. I will exhaust every effort to find a wounded bird. Have spent over one hour looking and not finding. I don't like to do that. It wastes valuable hunting time, the dogs lose interest, and it's frustrating when you don't find them.

(but some of the best stories are finding the crazy wounded cocks)
 
Musti - a bump followed by standing still to wing is a surprise for the dog. He didn't have scent, or he knows he screwed up and he stops to flush because he's been taught to hold staunch. A bump and chase shows me he made the determination to not hold staunch and I'm not going to shoot that bird and reward him for acting up.

These past two weekends I've run into woodcock running. You ever see a woodcock run? Funniest thing. They waddle and can't move very fast, but if you're 40 yards in closing into the point, they'll cover some ground. Drove me and the dog nuts. He caught two, that ran right in front of his nose. I didn't say a word, just calmly took it from him and sent him on. Also almost caught a grouse that ran out from under a deadfall not 5' in front of him. More than he could take to hold. Each time he was so freakin wound up after those and about out of control.

C_D - I can't count the number of times I wanted to go west into the wind, but the dog peeled off north and about the time I toot for him to quarter back the beeper goes off that he's on point. Letting the dog hunt is why I like going alone, or with maybe one partner. It's hard in a group that wants to line up and go.
 
Bumped birds

This is a great thread. When I started hunting pheasants with a friend and his dog back in the 70's I had started training my own dog, a pup from his bitch. He was all about getting birds and yelled and sometimes smacked his dog. That really spoils a hunt as others have said.

I trained my pup, a brittany male, to hunt close and cast back and forth with a mouth whistle and hand signals and he picked it up pretty good. I don't think we even had shock collars back then and I don't know if I want to use one at all on my upcoming pup. Does everybody use shock collars these days?

One last question, if your hunting a field with 3, 4, or five hunters and someone kicks up a rooster that the dog was no where near, do you shoot it?
 
rules

Ranger Rick said:
Musti - a bump followed by standing still to wing is a surprise for the dog. He didn't have scent, or he knows he screwed up and he stops to flush because he's been taught to hold staunch. A bump and chase shows me he made the determination to not hold staunch and I'm not going to shoot that bird and reward him for acting up.

These past two weekends I've run into woodcock running. You ever see a woodcock run? Funniest thing. They waddle and can't move very fast, but if you're 40 yards in closing into the point, they'll cover some ground. Drove me and the dog nuts. He caught two, that ran right in front of his nose. I didn't say a word, just calmly took it from him and sent him on. Also almost caught a grouse that ran out from under a deadfall not 5' in front of him. More than he could take to hold. Each time he was so freakin wound up after those and about out of control.

C_D - I can't count the number of times I wanted to go west into the wind, but the dog peeled off north and about the time I toot for him to quarter back the beeper goes off that he's on point. Letting the dog hunt is why I like going alone, or with maybe one partner. It's hard in a group that wants to line up and go.
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the rules are, follow the dog if you want to shoot a lot of birds. the problem with hunting with someone is, ya can't cause your friend won't know what is going on, so ya hunt a pattern, we all do it but it is not nearly as productive as hunting alone and following the dog. dogs are not much fun to have a beer with though

cheers
 
I don't think Ive ever had a problem afield when hunting with buddies and family. My uncle had a lab and she is awesome when it comes to retrieving. Although im still fairly new to the scene, Ive been hunting upland for about four years now. I might have and issue with my dog but i try to take it easy and just let her know that its OK and well work on it. I do get mad at times but i got to look at it in her perspective. I enjoy watching my dog work! I have always liked hunting with dogs for that reason.
 
KansasBirdHunter89 said:
I don't think Ive ever had a problem afield when hunting with buddies and family. My uncle had a lab and she is awesome when it comes to retrieving. Although im still fairly new to the scene, Ive been hunting upland for about four years now. I might have and issue with my dog but i try to take it easy and just let her know that its OK and well work on it. I do get mad at times but i got to look at it in her perspective. I enjoy watching my dog work! I have always liked hunting with dogs for that reason.
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That is what hunting is really about for me too. Watching a good dog work and do it's thing. Dogs will make mistakes along the way and will learn from those mistakes.

Teach a dog the basics and let them learn the rest by shooting the birds they get right - That is their reward. If they bust a covey resist the urge to shoot. The bird should be the dog's reward.
 
Lanerjo said:
That is what hunting is really about for me too. Watching a good dog work and do it's thing. Dogs will make mistakes along the way and will learn from those mistakes.

Teach a dog the basics and let them learn the rest by shooting the birds they get right - That is their reward. If they bust a covey resist the urge to shoot. The bird should be the dog's reward.
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Yes sir well said! I understand things don't always come out like we would like them too! I try to take it easy and just enjoy my day out there in the field. :thumbsup:
 
In an earlier post I said I don't normally shoot birds my dog doesn't hold point on. Hunting with a group can be different. For sure, someone else flushes a bird and it's OK to shoot it.

My pup was making plenty of mistakes early in the season. I shot the ones he did his job on. Others I let fly off. This past weekend we shot two limits of woodcock. He did an outstanding job. Hunted hard, checked back to me, held staunch, hunted dead well. Couldn't have asked for a better hunt.

I'm headed for Iowa on Friday and can't wait to watch Max working those pheasants, using the wind, figuring it out on moving birds, on point, the flush and shot. Just two of us and Max going on this hunt. Getting hard to concentrate on work...
 
dog work

sounds like your mutt did the job on the woodcock, expect a little different performance on roosters though, that is a big jump for a dog, a good time should be had anyway. you just may find that pheasants really don't want to be pointed

cheers
 
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