Difference Between Dogs

elijah79

elijah79

New member
I have a few bird dogs and I love the thrill of watching them work in the field. I can't think of much in the world more beautiful than a good pointing dog in the field after birds.
Now that I got that out of the way, here's my question: What is the difference between how a Pointer works and how a Setter works? I'm speaking more specifically of like a English Pointer and an English Setter. I personally have two GSP's and a Weimaraner, but I'm curious about how other dogs differ.
 
English Setters vs Pointers

I first hunted with my Dad and Uncle in the late 40's. They had setters, some were close working and were called "singles dogs. The wider running dogs were "covey" dogs. Later I had my own, both ES and EP. I had more pointers mostly since I did not have to worry as much about burrs. In general I believe my pointers had more range but I had a setter that was as wide as any pointer. As to difference I feel it depends upon the individual dog and the line they originate from that dictates the difference rather than pointer or setter. Some of my dogs were stronger willed than others. But that again, to a degree, is controlled by their ancestors. In my later years I have German shorthairs, since the majority do not have as much range and the areas left to hunt are much smaller. With that said there are some wide running GSP's.
 
Well I have not hunted over that many pointers but the ones that I have hunted over were so different between dogs I don't know that as a group they are greatly different than setters. Some run big, some are closer working.

I do think pointers take the heat better than setter, but on the other hand Setters did better in colder and wetter conditions.

A couple of the pointers would take a line and stay on it, but you see that in some setters as well.

But as a rule, Setters are much better looking :D
 
Pointers & Setters

In my first reply to this thread I allowed myself to become to focused on the range of each breed. The success of a "bird" dog probably depends more upon his ability to use his NOSE than any other aspect of comparison. I enjoy seeing the dog on point and a setter has a slight edge over a pointer due to the tail flag but both can be very intense and leave an image in your mind that lasts forever. There are many factors to compare but I believe it is the individual dog that impresses rather than a breed.
 
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I'm a Brittany man but have to admit that the English setter is about the most beautiful dog there is. As for different hunting styles, not sure I have noticed a big breed difference among the pointing breeds - setters, pointers, and Brittanies -- but my experience is limited.
 
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my first dog when I moved down here was an English Pointer- she was given to me- 12 years later I got pick of the litter of American Brittany's- next year the wife bought me a feamle English Setter- (I know- these days they forget about the names of those back then)

Short of it was- my EP covered 200 yards max out in front of me-
my first Britt covered 250 yards max out in front of me
my Setter covered 90 yards max in front of me-

all were good- not quite in the class of these Britt's I've come to love in the past 20 years- 1/4 mile is their range- they would find and be on point before any of the dogs I had previously- run a real good pointing dog who stays close with a real good pointing dog who gets out there- the close one best be a real good backer

you cut the tail off a pointer, setter, or whatnot- a Brittany can show as much style and run- I thought about leaving the tail uncut on one of my pups- then run her against a setter and see if the Britt was so poor in style

I'd do it on my next breeding- providing someone will bet a long tail Britt doesn't have "setter style"

way to many get hung up on that tail thing- back in the days- we'd have laughed at your stylish 12:00 long tails

ahhh- reason- you've been yanking your dog way to much by the tail
 
Pointers, setters, Brits and GSP

I believe the initial post began concerning English pointers and setters. I made reference to now hunting with German shorthairs since I felt their range would be somewhat less than that of the pointer or setter. I hope I made it clear that each breed of dog had to be judged upon its own merits. I do not feel one can say a particular dog is THE representative of that breed. That would be difficult due to the individuals analyzing each dog. Their own likes and dislikes would be used. I believe we have to hunt behind the dog that best meets our needs. I have not owned a Brit but have hunted behind them and judged them in trials. Some I felt were excellent dogs but I have not owned one for the reason given as to having more EP’s than ES. I do not like to have the burr problem with the coat. As to the tail I feel it does add to the “beauty” of a setter or pointer. I currently hunt with a well bred GSP and feel he gives me the intensity I like but I miss the tail length. A well carried “cracking” tail, smooth gaits and high tails on point can add to the overall picture. Yes, at one time the high tail was not seen as much but I feel it is a plus. Does it make a better dog, probably not? As mentioned, in a previous post, the intensity of the dog is what gives the great feeling that comes from a good find. A dog can be intense with a long tail or short tail. We have to choose what meets our needs.

I have seen a couple of long tailed Brits and felt that they did not carry the tail well since it was a thick heavy tail. Would all long tailed Brits have a thick tail, I do not know.
 
You will find great dogs in all the pointing breeds. Some breeds have a higher percentage of really good dog, but if you do your homework, you can find them in all the breeds.

A good friend of mine has some really nice V's, his pup is a running machine.

I may be slightly biased, about Setters being the best :rolleyes::D
 
murphya said:
I believe the initial post began concerning English pointers and setters. I made reference to now hunting with German shorthairs since I felt their range would be somewhat less than that of the pointer or setter. I hope I made it clear that each breed of dog had to be judged upon its own merits. I do not feel one can say a particular dog is THE representative of that breed. That would be difficult due to the individuals analyzing each dog. Their own likes and dislikes would be used. I believe we have to hunt behind the dog that best meets our needs. I have not owned a Brit but have hunted behind them and judged them in trials. Some I felt were excellent dogs but I have not owned one for the reason given as to having more EP’s than ES. I do not like to have the burr problem with the coat. As to the tail I feel it does add to the “beauty” of a setter or pointer. I currently hunt with a well bred GSP and feel he gives me the intensity I like but I miss the tail length. A well carried “cracking” tail, smooth gaits and high tails on point can add to the overall picture. Yes, at one time the high tail was not seen as much but I feel it is a plus. Does it make a better dog, probably not? As mentioned, in a previous post, the intensity of the dog is what gives the great feeling that comes from a good find. A dog can be intense with a long tail or short tail. We have to choose what meets our needs.

I have seen a couple of long tailed Brits and felt that they did not carry the tail well since it was a thick heavy tail. Would all long tailed Brits have a thick tail, I do not know.
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That 12 o'clock high tail on point is a great signal if you happened to have taken your eyes off the dog.
 
SetterNut said:
Well I have not hunted over that many pointers but the ones that I have hunted over were so different between dogs I don't know that as a group they are greatly different than setters. Some run big, some are closer working.

I do think pointers take the heat better than setter, but on the other hand Setters did better in colder and wetter conditions.

A couple of the pointers would take a line and stay on it, but you see that in some setters as well.

But as a rule, Setters are much better looking :D
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dont know if i agree with the wet ,my last pointer i had if the conditions were really wet he excelled in where i seen other breeds hav a tough time? now really snowy he seemed to have a tough time scenting never could figure that out? The one thing that really sticks out on difference in dogs is eps are so low maintenence which is a major factor for me they both tailcrack well they both are quick and snappy tails are both can be straight up but i also tend to think the ep is a toughr breed if you have the right genes
 
They do fine in the wet alone, it when it is cold, wet and a little wind.
But like all breeds there is a lot of difference between dogs of the same breed. I have seen some Setters that don't do as well in those conditions as some pointers. Just the same as you will see some pointers that will not do as well as some setters in the heat.
 
Ill try and break down the 4 major pointing dog breeds with the biggest generalization you can imagine! haha, this should stir the pot! :D Again, just a generalization. EP's will run bigger then all the other breeds, and no other breed can run as long as an EP (the National's at Ames prove this over and over again). EP's don't need you, they are the most independent of all the 4 pointing dog breeds and can do just fine in a kennel. A setter will tend to run a little smaller, and can't run all day like an EP. You could say an ES will be a little better in coolder weather, but as long as they are working, I don't think it matters. When they stop, the EP will get colder faster then and ES. ES's tend to be less dependent and are pretty good with families. They seem to like the attention that an EP doesn't need. Behind them you have the GSP's and Brits. GSP's and Brits tend to run a little smaller then EP's and ES's and can't run as long either (the reason you never have seen a Brit or GSP at Ames). GSP's tend to be the best "versatile" dog of the 4, with brits being a close second. Brits don't do well left in a kennel. They really do need interaction with people to build their confidence and bring out the best in them. GSP's tend to be a little harder headed then Brits, which tend to be a little softer...... Now, with all that said, you see more variation between actual dogs then you do between breeds. :cheers:
 
Difference between dogs

The ES’s seem to like the attention that an EP doesn't need.
I can agree with your post but I do not believe the EP is the cold individual as some portrait him. He can definitely do well as a kennel dog but if given special attention will thrive on it. The most EP’s I had at one time was three and each waited for a massaging of the head and areas around the ears. One would fall into a sort of trance and his eyes would glaze. He was one of my “biggest” running dogs and I felt the attention made him handle better. I enjoy my dogs as most individuals do and spend as much time with them as possible. Since I now only have one he receives quite a bit. Probably makes me feel better in the process.
 
This conversation reminds me of something I believe I read in one of George Bird Evans books but I am not absolutely sure. Anyway the gist of what he said is that there are no outstanding breeds only outstanding individuals.

If you use field trials as a point of reference for comparison there has to be something different in the performance of Pointers and Setters. Right? There was a great amount of attention given to Shadow Oak Bo (a Setter) winning the All Age Field Trial in January of this year. Johnny Crockett was the last Setter to win the National Championship at the Ames Plantation and that was in 1970. What is it about Pointers that have allowed them to dominate these trials for so many years? Yet in NSTRA trials Setters more than hold their own.

I currently own 4 female Setters. I have owned a Pointer and she was a dandy. I probably don't have the experience to distinguish the difference and don't know that as a bird hunter I really see any benefit in being able to distinguish the difference. Other than the Pointers' coat not offering the protection that the Setters' coat does they are all bird dogs to me.
 
really- there isn't a setter in the world that has come close to the Brittany in NSTRA

I have a pup that beat 31 dogs in a NSTRA trial in the open class
 
Dog Gun Time said:
This conversation reminds me of something I believe I read in one of George Bird Evans books but I am not absolutely sure. Anyway the gist of what he said is that there are no outstanding breeds only outstanding individuals.

If you use field trials as a point of reference for comparison there has to be something different in the performance of Pointers and Setters. Right? There was a great amount of attention given to Shadow Oak Bo (a Setter) winning the All Age Field Trial in January of this year. Johnny Crockett was the last Setter to win the National Championship at the Ames Plantation and that was in 1970. What is it about Pointers that have allowed them to dominate these trials for so many years? Yet in NSTRA trials Setters more than hold their own.

I currently own 4 female Setters. I have owned a Pointer and she was a dandy. I probably don't have the experience to distinguish the difference and don't know that as a bird hunter I really see any benefit in being able to distinguish the difference. Other than the Pointers' coat not offering the protection that the Setters' coat does they are all bird dogs to me.
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The reason you don't really see many ES's, or especially GSP's or Brits at Ames is because they just cant keep up with an EP for 3 hours. It doesn't make EP's better bird dogs, it just means that EP's have the body and the stamina to run longer then any of the other breeds. If you look at trials that are 1 hour and less, EP's lose their advantage and they become just like all the other breeds. Thats why Brits and GSP's have done very well against ES's and EP's in the shorter trials, especially in NSTRA where the winningest dog of all time is a brittany. However, since the the AF AA Nationals is considered the pinacle of bird dog trials, everyone thinks EP's are the best bird dogs, which is not necessarily true. Make it an hour trial and all breeds are pretty much equal. At an hour trial, individual dogs become much more important then breed of dog.
 
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Shadow said:
really- there isn't a setter in the world that has come close to the Brittany in NSTRA

I have a pup that beat 31 dogs in a NSTRA trial in the open class
Click to expand...

And there isn't a brittany in the world who has come close to a setter at the AF Nationals at Ames.
 
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