Browning or Beretta?

T

TheMorningRise

New member
I have been a big Browning fan most of my life. I liked everything about them, from their waterfowl guns to the upland and clays guns. However, with the elimination of the 625, my thoughts are changing. I am not a big fan of the 725 series at all. It also seems as though they are more focused on clay guns than field guns right now. The field guns that they do produce, they seem to be more "based out" (less engravings, no gold inlays, etc.).

Am I being picky? Sure! But, we want to like what we shoot and I just do not like the looks of the 725's at all.

Can anyone with a 725 series convince me to stay Browning?

As of right now, the Silver Pigeon V is in the lead.
 
Shoot the one that you can shoot the best! Several people I know like one better than the other, in other words, if a browning fits you a beretta might not and vice versa. My son had a beretta o/u that he just could not get the hang of, now he shoots an 870 with trap furniture. Try before you buy if at all possible.
 
potatodigger1 said:
Shoot the one that you can shoot the best! Several people I know like one better than the other, in other words, if a browning fits you a beretta might not and vice versa. My son had a beretta o/u that he just could not get the hang of, now he shoots an 870 with trap furniture. Try before you buy if at all possible.
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This is good advice! Citori's fit me and I can shoot them pretty well. Cynergy's and Beretta's don't work nearly as well. If you can try them, you may save yourself a lot of expense and frustration.

Jerry
 
I started as Browning guy. I've owned many Browning o/u guns form the Citori line, from field guns to target guns. The early Citori guns up to the 80's were made with traditional machined forgings. The internals were very well made and fitted. After that, Browning started using investment castings around that time. The guns seemed to have less and less internal and external craftsmanship as time passed. I currently own a later 525 sporting 20 ga with32" barrels. The gun fits me well and the swing dynamics are great. But the internals are crap. The trigger pull was ridiculously heavy and had a ton of creep. It felt like I was dragging out the trash. I've worked the trigger until it's satisfactory. But the gun will not stand up to high volume target shooting. Fortunately, I don't shoot it much.

I'm a fairly serious amateur gunsmith, having done it full time decades ago. I owned a small machine shop and the gun smithing was a natural fit for me. I only work on my guns these days.

My only Beretta o/u was a 682 Gold E Sporting, 32", 12 ga. That gun was as nice on the inside as the outside. It was rebuild able for wear and had an excellent trigger pull. It was designed for high volume target shooting, unlike the Browning clay gun line that simply their Citori design receiver with various barrel and stock configurations. The current equivalent model to my 682 Gold E is the 692. The Beretta gun line has a clear step up above Browning guns, IMO. Both Browning and Beretta use a gold plating for decorative game scenes on the guns you mentioned. Browning doesn't do real gold inlays until you move to their custom Belgian guns, similar for Beretta.

There's a lot of characteristics that go into a gun feeling that make it "majic" for you. But the number one thing is gun fit. It is comprised of: length of pull, drop at the heel, drop at the comb, cast, and pitch. After that, you get into weight, balance, or a nebulous term applied to those two called swing dynamics. Most people tend to be suduced by a lighter gun if two were being compared. But the reality is most people will shoot a slightly heavier gun better, that has more forward weight ( slower swing).

If you're interested, the best book I've run across on gun fit is Gunfitting by Michael Yardley. It's a small inexpensive book available on Amazon.
 
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Roaniecowpony said:
I started as Browning guy. I've owned many Browning o/u guns form the Citori line, from field guns to target guns. The early Citori guns up to the 80's were made with traditional machined forgings. The internals were very well made and fitted. After that, Browning started using investment castings around that time. The guns seemed to have less and less internal and external craftsmanship as time passed. I currently own a later 525 sporting 20 ga with32" barrels. The gun fits me well and the swing dynamics are great. But the internals are crap. The trigger pull was ridiculously heavy and had a ton of creep. It felt like I was dragging out the trash. I've worked the trigger until it's satisfactory. But the gun will not stand up to high volume target shooting. Fortunately, I don't shoot it much.

I'm a fairly serious amateur gunsmith, having done it full time decades ago. I owned a small machine shop and the gun smithing was a natural fit for me. I only work on my guns these days.

My only Beretta o/u was a 682 Gold E Sporting, 32", 12 ga. That gun was as nice on the inside as the outside. It was rebuild able for wear and had an excellent trigger pull. It was designed for high volume target shooting, unlike the Browning clay gun line that simply their Citori design receiver with various barrel and stock configurations. The current equivalent model to my 682 Gold E is the 692. The Beretta gun line has a clear step up above Browning guns, IMO. Both Browning and Beretta use a gold plating for decorative game scenes on the guns you mentioned. Browning doesn't do real gold inlays until you move to their custom Belgian guns, similar for Beretta.

There's a lot of characteristics that go into a gun feeling that make it "majic" for you. But the number one thing is gun fit. It is comprised of: length of pull, drop at the heel, drop at the comb, cast, and pitch. After that, you get into weight, balance, or a nebulous term applied to those two called swing dynamics. Most people tend to be suduced by a lighter gun if two were being compared. But the reality is most people will shoot a slightly heavier gun better, that has more forward weight ( slower swing).

If you're interested, the best book I've run across on gun fit is Gunfitting by Michael Yardley. It's a small inexpensive book available on Amazon.
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Excellent information!

I take my archery to the extent that you take your gunsmithing. While I do not have the experience on the scatter gun side that you do, I am also not ignorant to it.

At 5'9", 165lbs., I have relatively small hands, short fingers and shorter arms (32" sleeve). With that said, both guns in this thread should very well and the sight line, while different, is very close for me. The biggest difference for me, with my hands, is the fore end on the Beretta. It fits just a bit better. Again, not a large enough difference to completely steer me one way or another.

I was first a Beretta guy, loving the Silver Pigeon and the 682 Gold E (while I never owned one, I shot one and loved it). Then, when I got into waterfowling, I moved over to Browing starting with the "Gold" Series. I know have a Maxus for waterfowl. Some of the clay guns from Browning look very nice and I can see me running them as well.

However, the past year or so, I have started to look at Beretta again, for the simple fact that when we were in Arizona, I fell in love with a Silver Pigeon V, in a 28ga. I was going to use it for Quail hunting, but I never purchased the gun. I still love that Silver Pigeon V and am considering the 20ga., 24" barrel.

But again, I really like the wood on the "High Grade" 725 Series, Grade V. It is a very nice looking gun. However, I think the fore end on the 725 series is hideous. Part of the factor is pricing and I am able to get the Browning a bit cheaper than the Beretta. But again, not a big enough difference to determine a purchase.

Both companies in my opinion are also "life style" companies, such as Orvis (who I am not a fan of). Browning and Beretta both have the clothing, accessories, etc. for one to show their "pride" every where!
 
On average, people shoot more consistently with a longer sight radius and slower swinging gunp. On a upland hunting double gun (sxs or o/u) I prefer 28" barrels for those reasons. On a pump or auto, you have the added length of the receiver (6-7") which adds to the sight radius. So when comparing sight radius using barrel lengths, accounting for the receiver length on repeaters vs break action guns needs to be considered. A 24" o/u is a very short sight radius.
 
TheMorningRise said:
At 5'9", 165lbs., I have relatively small hands, short fingers and shorter arms (32" sleeve).
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I'm wondering if one of the smaller Browning Citoris (or Berettas, about which I know little) that they sometimes call "feather" or "lightning" would be a better fit.
 
Browning had an aluminum alloy framed Citori called "feather". Beretta had several iterations over ther years,of aluminum o/u guns. The last one I recall is the 687 Ultralight which was 6 1/2 lbs in 12 ga.
 
Roaniecowpony said:
I started as Browning guy. I've owned many Browning o/u guns form the Citori line, from field guns to target guns. The early Citori guns up to the 80's were made with traditional machined forgings. The internals were very well made and fitted. After that, Browning started using investment castings around that time. The guns seemed to have less and less internal and external craftsmanship as time passed. I currently own a later 525 sporting 20 ga with32" barrels. The gun fits me well and the swing dynamics are great. But the internals are crap. The trigger pull was ridiculously heavy and had a ton of creep. It felt like I was dragging out the trash. I've worked the trigger until it's satisfactory. But the gun will not stand up to high volume target shooting. Fortunately, I don't shoot it much.
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Trigger pulls can be fixed by a competent smith rather easily. i am curious as to why you think the Citori action will not stand up to high volume target shooting, especially since you don't shoot it much, when I've seen quite the contrary?

The Citori action is a very stout action IMO. I'm a competitive Sporting Clays shooter who has put close to 100k rounds thru my older 325 and my newer 725 has close to 15k rounds thru it currently with no ill affects. In fact the 325 just had it's first action tune just recently as it was finally time.

Browning vs Beretta IMO is a lot like Chevy vs Ford. I have a good friend who owns a Beretta 692 Sporting. He's a Beretta guy and I've shot his gun on a number of occasions. Very nice gun, however, I still prefer my 725. Just feels better in my hands.
 
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I didn't intend to offend the Browning followers, but I suppose a statement of one over the other can't avoid that.

While I said I didn't shoot my current 20 ga Citori 525, I did mention I have owned a number of them. All others were 12 ga. Several were early 80s or 70s guns. A few were later 80s, 90s and 2000+ guns. I've also worked on many guns in the 90s while gun smithing for many of the gun stores in the South Bay Area of Los Angeles. I've seen a fair number of loose Citori guns. Of course I didn't see the use that caused it.

I believe your 325 is in the generation that was a forged gun. I'm not certain of that, as it has been many years since I sold my 325 Sporting.

Later guns are investment cast. The beretta target competition guns are forged and the bar cross section of the frame is larger, which provides lower stress during closing and firing and therefore less propensity for creep (stretching due to repeated high stress). The Beretta comp guns also have easily replaceable trunnions and they are available in various sizes to accommodate wear in the barrel portion of the trunnions. Not so with the Browning. This may be a moot point when comparing field guns of both makers, since I have no idea if the Beretta field guns are cast or forgedand the number of firings is low in a field gun.

Later Citori guns also exhibit lower quality workmanship. For example, the rib on my 525 is bowed sideways. If you take an early gun apart next to a late gun, the workmanship is evident
 
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No offense taken.

Couldn't say for sure about forging in the 325, however, I see nothing wrong with Investment casting provided a sound design is used as is the case with the Citori. In fact with the 725 the action is slimmer than previous citori's making it more "Italianized" ;) as we will say, Still the same strong Citori action, but a noticeable change in feel. This IMO improves the guns handling dynamics. A much improved mechanical trigger and lighter barrels all contribute to the biggest make over in Citori history. Will this 725 stand the test of time as did it's predecessors? Time will tell. So far It has been trouble free and a work horse. More importantly, it's a very enjoyable gun to shoot.

Roanie, would you agree with this quoted statement?

The Citori's action is therefore the Miroku version of a Browning design. It has the same substantial hinge pin that engages with a large under barrel lump as the hinge system, combined with a full-width locking bolt that engages with a similar full-width slot machined into substantial bifurcated rear underlumps that also engage fully and precisely into the action body floor. The bolt and recess (known as the ?bite') are tapered where they engage, thus ensuring that any wear is automatically compensated for by the locking bolt engaging more deeply. This achieves a very strong action lock-up that is noted for a long and trouble-free life.
This format does not achieve the shallow action depth of guns using twin hinge trunnions set into the action walls and engaging the barrels partway up their side faces, as with the Beretta design for example. However, it has proved no hindrance to Browning and Miroku guns. It's not the slimmest or lowest action around, but it is immensely strong and houses a very reliable action mechanism.
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Sounds about right to me, but I don't know about investment casting vs forging. I believe Ruger was the mfg that originated investment casting and they have been very successful with it. Not sure what is meant by the Beretta having a larger bar cross section? I thought one of the complaints about the Browning was the larger depth of the action and one of the reasons for that is the full width pivot pin.

The OP didn't say what the intended use was for the shotgun. For Clays, durability is important and added weight can be a good thing. For upland hunting, less weight is better and the ability to go 50k rounds isn't as important.

I bought a Citori Feather a couple of years ago so I would have a gun that could handle steel if necessary. It is a nice gun, but I prefer my old Superposed for pheasant hunting. At maybe a hundred rounds a year, I doubt I will ever wear it out.

Many options available and I think you should get whichever one you like best.

Jerry
 
One of each! That's what I did! :)

I like my beretta for pheasant though (687 II). It's just pretty enough to make me happy using it, but not so pretty that I stresses me out to bust cover with it. I like my Cynergy camo for waterfowl because it's a bit more robust for being out in the mud, but it definitely doesn't hurt my feelings to carry it for pheasant either. It swings along very nicely and follows through just the way I like. But, if I could only have one, it's the beretta, and I'd personally take it over a citori of similar grade - just a bit finer, more streamlined, refined - I dunno exactly. Pretty much a personal thing I guess. Nice problem to have to make this decision! Happy shopping!

Dave
 
crockett said:
One of each! That's what I did! :)
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That's kinda what i did Crockett. I have Browning O/U's and Beretta Autoloaders, so I swing both ways. :eek:

My biggest issue is remembering to wear my Beretta hat the days i shoot Beretta and vice verse. I have gotten that wrong a couple times. :eek:
 
Birdshooter,

I guess I run in the same thought process as you.

I get along way better with browning over unders. I like my 525 sporting clays gun.

Tried a beretta 682 gold e sporting clays gun.... it was not a pleasant outcome. It is for sale.

For autoloaders I get along better with berettas than I do brownings. I like my 391.

pumps, I am an 870 person.
 
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