Advice on Vizsla live bird retrieving

P

parabol

New member
I have a 20 month old male Vizsla that has great bird drive, hunts hard, and has great stamina. The one area I'm working on is bird retrieving and I'm struggling. He retrieves bumpers in the yard pretty good, also bumpers with pheasant wings and tail feathers attached to it.

When we're in the field he will find the dead bird after it's knocked down but will not retrieve it. I've hunted Ruffed Grouse, Woodcock and pheasant and chukar over him with the same result.

I had some success this summer with a frozen chukar he retrieved 2 times in a row and I thought it was a breakthrough but on a real hunt he still does not retrieve.

For yard retrieving I also use his training table since it seems to help force him to come back to me rather than doing the young dog circle run around me. This is my first dog I've tried to train and most everything is going well except for this. Steadiness training I've heard should start after his second hunting season.

I've also hunted him with my friend's lab who retrieves well in hopes that he could learn some things. Since he's a house dog also and we have small children, their stuffed animals are off limits and I'm wondering if that is playing a part since the texture is similar. If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it as I'm new to this forum.

Thanks!


Here are some links to some training sessions.

Yard retrieving and frozen quail attempt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_HAnMCu6zQ&feature=youtu.be

Good point at 12 months on live hunt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFhwFerGIM

Summer training run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXahFZ-B3pw
 
hunter94 said:
take him to a trainer and get him force fetched...
Click to expand...

I'll 2nd that. Get him to a good trainer and have him Force Fetched/Trained Retrieve. It will probably cost you $600-700 but in the long run you will saying it was money well spent.
 
I have a good friend who is a very experienced trainer I mean hundreds of dogs, I thought I knew a lot until I met him. He goes by Gonehunting on some of these forums. I asked him to write a book before he goes toes up LOL.

I asked him for a method to help folks that want to teach retrieve without force, if you have the time its not a hard thing to accomplish just be consistent and patient.


here it is,



Take a plank (2x10 or equivalent size plywood strip 8' long) and place it between two chairs. Many people make a regular bench, but for one dog it would be a waste of your time and money. Don't worry if pup doens't want to jump up on the bench; just pick him up and plunk him down there. Have a 1" collar and a leash on him.

You'll hold the lead in your left hand with about 1' of slack in it. Have a 1" wooden dowel in your left hand. I really like the one the dog supply houses sell because it's rough and kind of non slip. With your left hand, pinch the dogs upper gums against his canine teeth, say fetch, and when he opens up, PULL UP ON HIS LIPS to clear them of the canines and place the dowel in his mouth. With your right hand tap, not beat, under his chin to keep his nose pointed up and command "hold". Don't let him spit it out at first. If he gets beligerant, give him a light cuff and tell him NO, HOLD!. Make him sit quietly, nose in the air, and hold it. Now say DROP and remove it from his mouth. Do it again. And again and again and again until when you touch his lips and say "fetch", he opens up, takes the dowell, and quietly hold it, either sitting or standing. When he understands the drill, start tapping the dowel. You're daring him to drop it. If he does, pick it up, pinch his gums, and put it back it. He only drops when you tell him to, not when he wants to.

Before you start this, the dog should be totally obedience trained. When he does this perfectly, get him off the bench. Sit him on the ground by your side, hold the dowell in front of his nose and command "fetch". He won't understand and you'll have to start all over again with him on the ground. A dog is a place driven animal and has to learn commands in anew each time you change training places@ the bench, the yard, the field. Now when he starts taking and holding it without a problem, command "drop". He won't unless you pull it out of his mouth. Gently pivot your let toe over his right paw, softly step down, and command drop. He will. A dog's paw's are very tender so never, ever, get mad and stomp on them. Do this drill until the dog takes the dowel on command, holds it on command, and drops it IN YOUR HAND on command.

Now we have to get him moving. Command fetch, hold, and then heel. He'll imediately spit it out. Pick it up, pinch his gums, say fetch and heel him again. You'll eventuall win. He'll get mad, you'll get mad, but persevere and you'll be rewarded. When you can walk him at heel and he doesn't drop it, proceed to the next step. You guessed it; fetch, hold but now SIT. Walk 6' away from him, and command here or heel. A retriever should come to heel by coming to your left side, turning to his left, and sitting by your side, facing forward, holding the dowel firmly. When he does these drills enerringly, next step.

Now switch him to a training bumper and do it all over again.

He's nearly done now. Now we'll get him retrieving. Make it fun but you'll have to reinforce the drills. Have him on a 30' CC. Whoop it up and throw out a bumper, sending him immediately. As SOON As, The Very Instant, he picks it up, say HOLD and reel him gently in. You guessed it. If he spits it out, calmly walk out, and it's fetch, hold, heel, drop. This can take a long time since it is in no way a real force program. The only pressure really applied is the gum pinch. That's about it. When he's done on bumpers, you'll have to re-do it on birds. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Patience, patience, patience.

Never plead with a dog, never offer him treats to perform a task, never let him refuse a command. That's it. Good luck with him.
_________________
 
Wow thanks for the thorough explanation, much appreciated. I've seen some force fetch videos similar to the way you outlined it below.

Fortunately I already have built a training table where I've started my whoa training. It sounds like I have to complete some more basic training first before I start force fetch training. His steadiness needs work since he tends to creep after a point is started (you can see in one of the videos below).

Would it be wise to complete steadiness training before force fetch? Or is there a particular age I should target?
 
this is done in the yard and really doesn't have anything to do with your steadiness training.

If the dog knows whoa steadiness must be done with birds this isn't done with birds or around them and shouldn't be until the very end


I would go ahead and train this AFTER the season is over

its something that once you start you will have to stay with it through the whole progression, so pick a time of year where weather and commitments wont get in the way.

Hope it helps, its not hard you just have to stick with it thru each stage and don't skip or rush anything,
dont move to the next step until the dog is doing the current one perfectly

and don't let yourself get angry...if he spits it out 50 times just matter of factly put it back 51 times

if you get real frustrated take him off the table give him some commands he will do and call it a day

finish on and upbeat note and love him up
 
I really like a lot of the info Bob gve you.

One big thing I want to point out is obedience is very very important. I mean even everyday things. When you give a command you give it once and enforce. Just take a second and replay your video and count how many times you "Ask" your dog to do a task.
epeat commands comes while introducing a new command. Then it becomes, one command and then enforce. if not, it becomes a " I dont have to do it until dad says it the 6th time". The unfortunate facts are that when a car is coming, you dont get a 6th command. Just trying to help.
I have money that says when you get even the simplest command cleaned up and sharp, you will begin to see a big difference in everything the dogs does.

FF is ging to also do wonders for you. Not only will it get you a reliable retreiver, but you will also build a strong bond with the dog. A different bond then you have now. I bigger respect from the dog. This I promise you.
Another important thing to think about i getting this done ASAP. When that pup realizes the size of his nutz, he is going to get a whole different outlook on life. Best to get into his head now.

I dont have a good method for oyu as I use a mix of old school ear pinch and new school methods. The end result is the same. When I am done my dogs will retrieve a hotdog off of the table with out eating it.;)

Good luck and be ready to see it through from start to finish.

One other thing I would stop. I would stop making fetch so visual and a game.
If you want to throw a ball, great. Just dont tell him fetch anymore.
Just some tips I live by with dog training.
Give one command and one command only
Enforce every command you give
Never give a command that you can not enforce
Praise(which I heard you do and that was cool)
 
Thanks again guys for the advice. This is more about me than the dog for sure. One nice thing about video recording some of this is it allows you to review what you did and be brutally honest with the way you did it. Giving to many commands I think is some of my problem while in the field you just don't realize it until playing it back. Using the e-collar in the field has helped a great deal with enforcement, it certainly makes it more effective.

There's so much information out there and different techniques but it seems like the common ground is well, common. I will try your suggestions, they make sense to me. I've heard some folks say a Vizsla shouldn't be forced as they are more sensitive than other breeds. I'm not quite sure if this is true but I can say that my dad had a GSP when I was a teenager and his general demeanor was certainly more hard headed, but this was mostly due to lack of training. It does seem easier to get the attention of my vizsla, I just don't want to discourage his general drive in the field.
 
bobman said:
I have a good friend who is a very experienced trainer I mean hundreds of dogs, I thought I knew a lot until I met him. He goes by Gonehunting on some of these forums. I asked him to write a book before he goes toes up LOL.

I asked him for a method to help folks that want to teach retrieve without force, if you have the time its not a hard thing to accomplish just be consistent and patient.


here it is,



Take a plank (2x10 or equivalent size plywood strip 8' long) and place it between two chairs. Many people make a regular bench, but for one dog it would be a waste of your time and money. Don't worry if pup doens't want to jump up on the bench; just pick him up and plunk him down there. Have a 1" collar and a leash on him.

You'll hold the lead in your left hand with about 1' of slack in it. Have a 1" wooden dowel in your left hand. I really like the one the dog supply houses sell because it's rough and kind of non slip. With your left hand, pinch the dogs upper gums against his canine teeth, say fetch, and when he opens up, PULL UP ON HIS LIPS to clear them of the canines and place the dowel in his mouth. With your right hand tap, not beat, under his chin to keep his nose pointed up and command "hold". Don't let him spit it out at first. If he gets beligerant, give him a light cuff and tell him NO, HOLD!. Make him sit quietly, nose in the air, and hold it. Now say DROP and remove it from his mouth. Do it again. And again and again and again until when you touch his lips and say "fetch", he opens up, takes the dowell, and quietly hold it, either sitting or standing. When he understands the drill, start tapping the dowel. You're daring him to drop it. If he does, pick it up, pinch his gums, and put it back it. He only drops when you tell him to, not when he wants to.

Before you start this, the dog should be totally obedience trained. When he does this perfectly, get him off the bench. Sit him on the ground by your side, hold the dowell in front of his nose and command "fetch". He won't understand and you'll have to start all over again with him on the ground. A dog is a place driven animal and has to learn commands in anew each time you change training places@ the bench, the yard, the field. Now when he starts taking and holding it without a problem, command "drop". He won't unless you pull it out of his mouth. Gently pivot your let toe over his right paw, softly step down, and command drop. He will. A dog's paw's are very tender so never, ever, get mad and stomp on them. Do this drill until the dog takes the dowel on command, holds it on command, and drops it IN YOUR HAND on command.

Now we have to get him moving. Command fetch, hold, and then heel. He'll imediately spit it out. Pick it up, pinch his gums, say fetch and heel him again. You'll eventuall win. He'll get mad, you'll get mad, but persevere and you'll be rewarded. When you can walk him at heel and he doesn't drop it, proceed to the next step. You guessed it; fetch, hold but now SIT. Walk 6' away from him, and command here or heel. A retriever should come to heel by coming to your left side, turning to his left, and sitting by your side, facing forward, holding the dowel firmly. When he does these drills enerringly, next step.

Now switch him to a training bumper and do it all over again.

He's nearly done now. Now we'll get him retrieving. Make it fun but you'll have to reinforce the drills. Have him on a 30' CC. Whoop it up and throw out a bumper, sending him immediately. As SOON As, The Very Instant, he picks it up, say HOLD and reel him gently in. You guessed it. If he spits it out, calmly walk out, and it's fetch, hold, heel, drop. This can take a long time since it is in no way a real force program. The only pressure really applied is the gum pinch. That's about it. When he's done on bumpers, you'll have to re-do it on birds. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Patience, patience, patience.

Never plead with a dog, never offer him treats to perform a task, never let him refuse a command. That's it. Good luck with him.
_________________
Click to expand...

The only thing I would add is when you transition to birds start with something small like a frozen pigeon or chucker. Work up to larger frozen birds. Than start over with fresh pigeons and so on. Fresh pheasants will probably degrade your hold due to feather loss, don't give in, maintain your standard.

Don't get frustrated this May take a few weeks or a few months. Trust me "hold" can be a bitch.....and it takes how ever long it takes. Oh and another thing at some point when things seem to moving a long your buddy might rebel and say screw you I am not taking this anymore....this is the moment you have to win keep your cool, DO NOT release lip pinch until the dog takes the bumper.

Steve
 
yeah, I have never owned a Viszla so I am not sure how accurate that statment is.
But I will tell you that if you do thi yourself, your going to have to be able to accurately recognize if you are going to fast or if you are going to slow.This will be vital.
If you take the dog to a pro, you will have to chose wisley. My first dog I sent to a pro. When I did a surprise visit, they had her up on a table, head strapped to the support beam, and an ecollar in her ear. Her eyes were blood shot from being shocked.We took her home that instant.
It was then that I decided i would figure this stuff out on my own.
Here are some boring video. Pretty short, but shows some steps that I took.
I start with just "Hold". When that is understood, I move to walking hold. Then on to fetch.
Presentation is also important to me. I want the dog to sit in front and give me the object. I will not take an object until she does this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-KAod_iTS4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNymaC-oYBs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH6FuwTXfaI

The end result are retrieves like these.You can fast forward the videos to the end.
First is Baja doing her search behind duck. She has to track an injured duck. If she finds it, she must bring it to me. Where I made a mistake was I should have given her a better place to sit down. But it worked out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO7K_1aGNP8

And this one during a hunt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuivEdXdMjE

yeah, I gave double commands in this and another video. Shouldnt have, but I am human too. ;)
 
I think the ear pinch with the collar is much easier to control the dog then the lip or toe pinch.
Slide your hand under the collar and flip the ear over the buckle of the collar or the name tag. This way very little pressure is needed to get a response.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top